What is a “good idea?”
In YOUR estimation?
Well, while I’m not him, I’d say it’s a good idea to calmly and succinctly state your views, offering evidence when appropriate.
So, for instance, if you think that the talk about “gay marriage” is a sham, you should probably offer evidence to support that, along with saying what gays really want, and offering evidence to support that too. It would probably also help if you were able to lay out your argument about how advocating for gay marriage helped gays get what they really wanted.
Especially when “gay marriage” doesn’t even enter into the topic of the thread he’s responding to. It’s about the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America voting to allow homosexual ministers who are sexually active in a monogamous, committed relationship. “Gay marriage” isn’t even on the table at the moment.
And your “evidence” would be?
Shall I scream for “Cites!”…for any thing you think is current?
Perhaps the experience of having homosexuals in my family will suffice?
One male.
One female.
They have been actively involved for decades.
Are their experiences, knowledge and life experiences good enough for you?
They have been dealing with this for a good long time.
And they both laugh at the notion of male homosexuals wanting “Marriage.”
Monogamy.
Life-long commitment.
Ha!
Show me yours.
Wow. Two data points. I’ll shut up now, since you’re obviously working from a far larger set of data than I am, actually BEING homosexual and having quite a few fellow homosexuals as friends.
The truth is, there are probably just as many gay men who want to get married to their partners as there are straight men who want to get married to their partners of the opposite sex. Your family members are not EVERY homosexual, and they can’t speak for every homosexual. And, frankly, if they don’t know ANY homosexuals who want to be monogamous with one person, then they have a very narrow set of acquaintances.
Ok. I’m a gay man, and would eventually like to meet a guy, settle down with him, and raise a family. I have friends who are gay, a number of whom are in long term monogamous relationships, that many of them would like to see recognized. Of course, I also know some total sluts. I know and am friends with members of groups like the Human Rights Campaign, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, and the Log Cabin Republicans, who have made the argument for gay marriage, domestic partnerships, and/or civil unions.
So if we’re just exchanging anecdotes, I can tell you that there are some gay people who are very sincere in their support for gay marriage. I’m sure there are some who do not, but for some gay people, at least, it’s a pretty major issue.
But why do you believe gay people are calling for marriage? Tell me, what do gays really want?
But why do you believe gay people are calling for marriage? Tell me, what do gays really want?
You’re gay. I’m not.
I only know what I’ve been told by family…and what I’ve read and what I’ve heard preached.
Those “gay folks” have passed on to my knowledge that…sshhhh…once we convince these folks that all we want is to be “Dudley Do-Right” (just like they are) and have ‘Marriages’ and ‘Children’ and ‘Families’ and ‘White-Picket-Fences’ - WE’RE IN!!! -
THEY’LL ACCEPT US!
Except… (according to my family memebers…) it IS a sham.
OK
Go ahead and tell me how ‘different’ they are.
They’ve been on the cutting edge of the homosexual movement since the 80s…
(At quite a cost to themselves and family…)
Most evangelicals are not young-earth creationists. I went to a fundamentalist Bible College 15 years ago and AFAIK there wasn’t a single YEC on faculty.
Well, I obviously can’t speak for your family members. If they want something different, than so be it. I can only speak for myself. But, at the same time, they can’t speak for me, and they can’t tell you what I want. And what I want is for my homosexuality not to be a big deal. I want people to “ACCEPT US”, as you put it.
Basically, I do want the right to get married if I want to, to be able to work where I want to without worrying about being fired, and to be able to guarantee I won’t be verbally harassed or physically abused for being gay. Mostly, I want to be able to live my life without having to censor myself, which I think is something that most gay people have to do a lot of the time…it’s something that constantly runs through your head, “Well, does this person know I’m gay or not? If not, how would they react if they knew? Better not talk about your boyfriend with this person, better make some excuse as to why you don’t have a girlfriend with that one”, and so on.
I think that’s what most gay people want…to be treated like everybody else.
Furt and Friar Ted…my br’uthas…
…what are you on about?
I’m willing to change the subject… . since apparently no one but homosexuals can speak to the issue…
Oh for goodness sake…can a cohort of gay men come in here and attest to the fact that they want monogomous marriage and children with their SOs - and that that is what most **** homosexuals want…just like everone else…
I’ve talked to - read about - listned to - conversed about “Gay Issues” with male homosexuals…
Well…they mostly want sex with as many partners as they are attracted to… FORGET “monogmany” -
As far as what has been said to me…even in “Couples” …or “Long Term” relationships…(hehehe) … is the PLEASURE of homosexual sex with multiple partners.
Yeah, Maleness!
So continue to describe to me how very “Same” you are to everyone else.
At least speak the truth.
(Unless, of course, you see this as a hindrance to the scam.)
There was, I guess, in the 70s and early 80s, a kind of gay subculture sort of similar to what you described, where there was a lot of sex with multiple partners, and sometimes with anonymous ones…the whole bathhouse/party culture.
You have to understand, though, that I was born in 1975, and came of age in the 1990s, and by that time, the AIDS epidemic had reduced that attitude, and really caused a change in gay sexual attitudes and behaviors. So, speaking for myself and my friends, most of whom were born in the '70s and '80s, most of us are pretty much monogamous. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t any promiscuity in the gay community…obviously there is, but I don’t think it’s overwhelming in the gay community, and most of the people who engage in anonymous sex in bathrooms or rest stops or whatever are people like Senator Craig, to use the most obvious example…people who are, from either choice or practical necessity, heavily closeted, and can’t have a relationship with people of the same sex.
I also want to point out that if you want to encourage monogamy among gays, allowing gay marriage is a good way to do it. Like this column by conservative New York Times columnist David Brooks points out, marriage is society’s way of encouraging couples to stay together and be faithful. By forcing people to make a public commitment to each other and rewarding them for doing so, marriage encourages a couple to take their relationship seriously. So if that’s what you want gay people to do, allow gay marriage. If you want gay people to be promiscuous and have sex with strangers and people they don’t care about, then do your best to stigmatize open homosexuality and gays living openly as couples. Then homosexuality will be forced back underground, and gays will have to have sex furtively and without making commitments to their sexual partners.
And that’s the truth, and not just a scam.
Are you kidding?
Unless “Society” lets us marry… we’ll just have to keep being promiscuous…
Males? Mormons? Anyone? Beuhler? Beuhler?
Oh, help.
Which books would these be?
and gays will have to have sex furtively and without making commitments to their sexual partners.
And that’s the truth, and not just a scam.
(Oh sorry that I can’t attribute properly…)
Really?
If “Society” doesn’t let you marry…then you can’t be monogamous?
For Jebus Cripes Sake!
Most heterosexual males would love the freedom you have as homosexuals.
The difference being that… (Ask Polycarp or Der Tis ) a person makes a ‘Pledge’ to “Be Faithful” forever in the heterosexual world.
They try.
Many suceed.
Male homosexuals…not so much.
(From what I’ve heard on the Front Lines.)
Der Tis just stays away from females…Polycarp reconciles himself …
But do most folks think that all male homosexuals want is just to be able to love one another and adopt children and have a family together? No.
And why not?
Because they don’t.
Come on.
I’ve snipped most of the rest of your post, because these seem to be the only parts of it where you’ve actually said anything.
Some will. Some won’t. Gays are not promiscuous by definition. For that matter (and I think this is the root of your problem, here) neither are guys. Lots of men, gay and straight, prefer monogamy.
No, that’s an anecdote you’ve drawn from a tiny sample. Just because most of the gays you’ve met (and how many are we talking here, really?) are big sluts, it doesn’t follow that all gays are big sluts.
No one said “can’t be.” But social pressure is a very real and powerful force, and shouldn’t be discounted so blithely. When society overwhelmingly tells you that your relationships aren’t as deep, aren’t as heartfelt, aren’t as valid as heterosexual relationships, its very hard not to internalize these attitudes and allow them to influence your behavior.
OK
We all give.
You can marry.
Now, of course, most males will want to fall in love with another male and remain faithful and have children and have the same life as heterosexuals have had the privilege of having… right.
Are you kidding?
That is NOT what most homosexual males want.
Ahh… Miller…
Can’t you be honest?
What percentage of male homosexuals you know, want monogamy?
Want life-long commitment?
Heterosexuals fail at monogamy ALL the time - but the great majority of them WISH it could work out.
Come on.
From first-hand accounts, I can tell you that serial sexual partners is what male homosexuals consider their due. This is normal. This is what they want.
Are you going to tell me this is wrong?
Even in long-term relationships, most homosexuals give a “wink-and-a-nod” to the excitment of sexual encounters with others.
So, should all of Society be so?
Really.
Should it?
I don’t know if it’s “most.” I do know that it’s a lot. Are you claiming that no gay males are monogamous? If not, how many gay males have to be monogamous in order to validate the same-sex marriage movement?
And why are you focusing on male homosexuals, anyway? What about lesbians? Even if every single male homosexual is a remorseless horndog who will fuck any dude at the drop of the hat, why should that be used as a bar to two women getting married?
I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any sort of a study on the subject. If I were to go by the gay men I know personally, it’d be roughly 90% or more. But then, there’s no way to know if the gay men I know personally represent an accurate cross section of the gay male population. Just as there’s no way to know if the promiscuous gays you know are an accurate cross section. Whatever the actual numbers are, it’s clear that it’s a significantly large amount to make gay marriage a major social issue. Millions of homosexuals, male and female, have stated a desire for the right to marry. I see no reason not to take their stated desires at face value, nor do I see any reason not to grant them their desire. Do you?
Sure. But they don’t all fail all the time. Lots of them make it work. What’s your point?
Yes, I am going to tell you that you are wrong. Some gays are promiscuous. Some gays are not promiscuous. I don’t know what the relative proportions are between these two groups. Neither do you.
No, this is also incorrect. Some gays in long term relationships do not practice monogamy, and are accepting of extra marital affairs in their partners. Quite a few are not accepting, and view any extra marital affairs as cheating, and a reason to end the relationship.
I’m not entirely certain what you’re asking. Should all of society be what? Gay? Promiscuous? Married?
You have painted this picture that male homosexuals are just exactly like straight men.
They want ONE man to call their own.
To settle down with.
To have children and “the picket fence” with.
You are telling me the exact opposite of what the homosexuals (male and female) in my family tell me.
It’s funny - my lesbian family member brings this very subject into the discussion quite often: do male homosexuals REALLY want loving, long-term, marriages with other males?
And they howl.
Some do. But, according to them, most don’t.
My contact to their/your community is them…or you.
Who would you have me believe?
They are educated, active, acquainted with (long term) the issues of the GLTB community - and tell me (after reading these posts) that you are being disengenuous.
Sorry.
I believe them.
Yeah, but I bet there were few actual Theistic Evolutionists (or open ones, at least). And unfortunately, compare the vocalness & public profile of YECists (Ken Ham, Carl Baugh, Institute of Creation Research, The Creation Museum- which I have visited & was pretty damn impressed by, even as I was internally arguing with all of the YEC stuff) with that of OECists (namely Hugh Ross).
The majority of my family members are republicans. Since they’re the only republicans I personally know, my anecdotal evidence of all their opinions paints a complete picture of all republicans.
Sorry, you can’t convince me of anything different. Even if there are republicans working towards changing laws that go against what my family says. They must be flukes or females.