Why this straight, Christian, married male supports gay marriage.

I posted this on my churches Facebook page. The discussion has been lively.

I am a heterosexual male. The vast majority of people who may read this (the number of which could possibly run literaly into the TENS!) are heterosexual as well. Gay marriage is the topic du jour. It is fun to talk about, but really is not going to impact our lives. It is even fun to be passionate about it. Its like arguing about how yummy or crappy Starbuck’s coffee is. Either you think they burn the beans or you think they are gourmet roasters. But ultimately you drink what you want and the discussion fades into the background and you go on about your life.

Soon we will forget about the gay marriage debate. But we shouldn’t.

First of all, let’s dispense with the “gay” moniker. It is simply marriage. A doctor doesn’t “finger”-stitch, or “scalp” stitch. The process is called stitching, no matter where it is done. Or suturing. You know what I mean. Tacking “gay” on the front of marriage, implies that it something other than…marriage. That means that even when it is legal a different class is implied.

The bumper sticker wisdom of the chatterati will say marriage is “one man, one woman”. Anyone who claims to be defending marriage from this position must also take up the charge against the greatest foe the institution of marriage has ever faced - divorce. So when I see religious groups forming PACs to outlaw divorce, I will know they are serious about defending the sanctity of marriage. To “one man, one woman” they should add, “one time”. But since born-again Christians are more likely to divorce than their non-religious counterparts (with Baptists leading the way), don’t expect these culture warriors to pick up the mantle any time soon.

Let’s remember two things about our great nation. First, while the separation of church and state is not enumerated in the Constitution, it is a long held and cherished tenet we hold dear. And second, the Founding Fathers and the Framers of the Constitution were adamant that the rights of the minority should be protected from the tyranny of the majority.

To the first point, whether you believe we are a “Christian” nation or not, you cannot allow your religious beliefs to enter into the decision making here. This decision is about rights and should be decided based upon legal reasoning. If you are religiously opposed to marriage equality, you should certainly make sure you belong to a religious group that supports your position. If you don’t think Dean and Steve should be married, you have every right to not let them get hitched in your chapel. (but you missed a FABULOUS party! And the red velvet cake with almond lace dressing was to DIE FOR!) But we are not the Taliban and we do not decide who gets educated based on religious principles, we do not blow up art that opposes our religious beliefs, and we should not grant or deny right based on religion either. And it is also a slippery slope. I can’t get through a chapter in Leviticus without finding out I should be stoned for one thing or another.

On the second point, our government was set up by brilliant men not as a democracy, but as a representative republic. This was to ensure that the rights, even of minority groups, were not infringed upon by the tyranny of the majority. That is, the majority cannot vote to remove rights from a minority group. The Federalist Papers (most prominently #10) referred to it as the “violence of majority faction”.

Now, my fellow heterosexual Christians, I want you to think about these two points, and take the long view. If you set the precedent that popular opinion can be the basis for denying rights, how does that bode for our grandchildren? By all accounts our nation is changing. Racially, ethnically, and religiously, our nation will be quite different in 5o years. The number of people identifying as Christian is in rapid decline, while other religions are growing.

Latino immigration alone will change the fabric of the country. What if Latinos, and their dominant Roman Catholic heritage, gain the majority? What if they then declare that any marriage made outside of the true and Catholic Church, is not valid? It strains credulity but, but you see my point. If they are the majority, would you accept that?

Within the next 20 years some western countries will become predominantly Muslim. With the rapid growth of Islam, it is not too far fetched to hypothesize about a Muslim majority in the United States. Will you quietly acquiesce if the majority declares all marriages must conform to Sharia Law?

By the same logic, we cannot deny the rights of people to marry who they love today. You must be able to think ahead to a time when the values you hold dear are no longer in the majority, and defend the minority today as you would defend yourself then.

And always remember, if a groom asks you if his dress makes his ass look fat, the answer is ALWAYS no!

I’d be very interested to read what people from a church group are saying not just about SSM but about your essay in particular. I think you make a number of excellent points.

Also, chatterati is now one of my favorite words. (BAND NAME!)

LOL I think we need a political rewrite of Happy Wanderer.

chatterati, chatterata, chatterati , chattera ah, ha, ha , ha ha ha

BTW, I like the OP and am also interested in what other Christians had to say about it.

I am also enamored with the word ‘chatterati’. It’s like the antonym for Illuminati. An excellent write up, newcrasher! I will be interested to see who can actually debate it rather than just spout off talking points about how gay marriage is ‘evil’

Lots of minority positions are not worth defending. It’s not a reasonable argument to say “defend minority positions, because you may be a minority someday.”

Are you saying that it is never a reasonable argument to say “defend minority positions, because you may be a minority someday”?

That’s what I’m getting from your post.

We are not defending thier position, we are defending their access to equal protection under the law. Beyond great parties and yummy red velvet cake, I never mentioned the pros or cons of the homosexual lifestyle.

I’m fine with gay marriage, but red velvet cake? Now that’s an abomination before God. I mean, if I want food that looks like bloody flesh when I cut it I’ll order roast beef.

There is no more of a “homosexual lifestyle” than a “heterosexual lifestyle.”

But you had me, up until then. Great job! And yes, let us know about the feedback from your church members.

Which Western countries are going to be predominantly Muslim in the next 20 years?

Anyway, I’d drop the bit about Islam entirely-- it only adds confusion to the argument. Oh no… if we allow Gay Marriage, the whole country is going to become Muslim!!!

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Defend minority positions on their merit, not because they’re minority positions. Equal marriage rights is a topic with its own set of arguments and merit, and should be defended because it’s the right thing to do, not because you’re afraid of the Mexicans changing the national religion to Catholicism.

agreed…a poor choice of words. But I think you got my point.

So far the response has been mostly supportive. If you want to FB friend me send me a PM and I will give you my name and you can read it/post to it. There are over 70 posts. There are also some who are against it as you can imagine, but even they are finding their position difficult, and I they seem to be willing to rethink it.

For the vast majority of people, they have never really thought about the ramifications of marriage equality. Their lizard brain tells them it is bad. But when given the opportunity to talk it out (civilly) they find room to change their position.

Well, that’s a hard distinction to make in this case–one of the strongest arguments for equal rights, to my mind (not the strongest, but up there) is the argument that to do otherwise sets a precedent–and the consequences of that precedent could be used against those who are now in the majority.

To put it another way, one of the objective benefits of a policy of strict equal rights is that it protects all rights from being taken away (something that is both the right thing to do and is valuable because I like those rights)–and pointing out the fact that discrimination harms the concept of civil rights is especially important when the right at issue now isn’t one a majority of people would exercise.

I think pointing out the consequence of allowing discrimination, and moving away from equal protection isn’t just an appeal to fear–I think many people understand how that is important to more than their simple personal interest–equal protection is to a great extent the core of a system of civil rights.

This (your Facebook post) is why I am still positive about the future of marriage equality, in spite of the recent stupidity in my home state of California. It may take 20 years before the majority of states accept and recognize marriage equality, and longer before the federal government does (and I hope it doesn’t happen via a Roe v. Wade type supreme court decision) but I believe it will happen in my lifetime (and I’m 60, but healthy).

That you could and would write this on your church’s Facebook page is what gives me hope. The arguments are pretty much unanswerable, and the point of view is measured and calm and rational. Those qualities will win in the end, as fear dies out from repeated exposure to them.

And to Mosier, my view is that equal rights for a minority is the primary issue in the marriage equality debate - albeit one that is frequently overlooked. There are differences, but I think the parallel with miscegenation laws is not inapt. No-one now thinks that interracial marriage should be against the law, even though there are still probably a large number of people who are uncomfortable about it. One day we will have the same acceptance of same sex marriage. Some people will still think it is evil, or icky, or embarrassing. But no-one will expect that the feelings of those people should have the force of law.

Good job, newscrasher!
Roddy

Be even more hopeful that my church is affiliated with the conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and we are having this conversation. All of the people who have spoken against it have done so calmly and without intentional malice. Their point of view comes from true ignorance or naivite. This is truly fighting ignorance. And I know these people - and they are good people - they will see the light if it is presented to the calmly and rationally.

That’s been my sense with people I know. They are good people who have been taught a certain thing and have cling to it for their own reasons. As I mentioned before, peer opinion has a lot to do with it. When the congregation is your surrogate family or your extended spiritual family it’s difficult to declare “I think you’re all wrong”

Yeah I just don’t give a flying flip about my church family thinking I am wrong. I am a perpetual pot stirrer, always bringing stuff like this up and making them defend their ignorant and fear-based positions. Makes some people love me, others, not so much.

I (a Christian) agree with Dolly Parton (also a Christian) when she said in her Tennessee twang, “I say let gay people marry each other. Why shouldn’t they have to suffer like the rest of us?”

Um, now THAT is an abomination! Everyone KNOWS a red velvet cake should have cream cheese frosting!!!

Seriously, rock on, newcrasher. That was brilliant.