So what? Chavez might not like the U.S. – which I think is something that can always be changed – but he’s no threat to us. Heck, it’s no skin off America’s nose – and none of America’s business, either – if every country south of the Rio Grande joins the Bolivarian Alliance.
Oh, Micheletti is no Pinochet, merely a placeholder. Same with Lobo, in all likelihood. But I am thinking of the band of Pinochets standing behind them.
QUOTE=BrainGlutton;11865686]So what? Chavez might not like the U.S. – which I think is something that can always be changed – but he’s no threat to us. Heck, it’s no skin off America’s nose – and none of America’s business, either – if every country south of the Rio Grande joins the Bolivarian Alliance.
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Castro-Chavez-Moreles Axis has already been taking friendly steps with Russia, Iran, and China. The Russian navy not too long ago held exercises in Venezuela. That is basically placing America’s three greatest strategic threats right on our backdoor in the event of a war and unacceptable.
International opinion will not allow it. You know how b***** our President was when this coup happened, he ain’t gonna accept a Pinochet at all.
Barring the US becoming a basket-case Leftist populist dictatorship, I rather seriously doubt that.
Chavez feeds off of having a big “bully” to oppose. Rather like his hero, Castro.
I would rather think that the US would have no small direct interest in opposing the Chavez inspired idiocy that is the Bolivarian Alliance, especially as it would doubtlessly drive more emigration to the US from the Latin American countries.
Waitaminnit, now. What “strategic threats”? China is America’s biggest creditor. You know how that works: If I owe you a thousand dollars, I have a problem; if I owe you a million dollars, you have a problem. Russia does not appear to have any territorial ambitions of any kind any more. They just want to swing their weight in what they consider their proper sphere of influence, the former USSR; which the U.S. and the world can well afford to tolerate. Iran? (1) A strategic threat to Israel is not a strategic threat to the U.S. (2) Iran is not really a strategic threat to Israel, Ahmadinejad’s saber-rattling notwithstanding; that rhetoric is for domestic consumption. Iran, like Russia, simply wants a sphere of influence in its own neighborhood – something the U.S. has always insisted on having since the Monroe Doctrine, so we can hardly deny it is a legitimate ambition for other powers.
You misunderstand. It has already happened. The “band of Pinochets” are the military and social elite of Honduras who engineered the coup.
You really think that would make any difference? In 2000, in Mexico, the socialist (at least, it is officially a member of the Socialist International) PRI, which had controlled the presidency for decades, was supplanted by the right-wing PAN. That has done nothing at all to relieve immigration pressure on the U.S.
China is supporting North Korea which is a rival to South Korea (our ally) and will certainly oppose Korean reunification. As for Russia what of it’s aggressive actions against Georgia and meddling in Ukraine?
Well they haven’t been imprisoning and murdering thousands so they aren’t likely to be new Pinochets.
It all has to do with the scale, Honduras is still smaller than Chile, less effort is needed to become a Pinochet.
http://ellibertador.hn/vivvo_general/Noticias/3591.html
“With the death of Trochez [who was a member of a human rights group in Honduras], as mentioned, there are now 14 people that have been murdered in suspicious actions and likely related to the current political context.”
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/12/11/honduras-reject-amnesty-abuses-during-coup
The opposition Radio and TV stations that were closed by the [del]goriletti[/del] Micheletti government still have their reporters threatened or their work and signals interrupted in many ways.
So, whats next? Clearly to me Honduras is the odd Central American nation that has reactionaries still controlling all branches of government thanks to very unfair methods, unfortunately for the oligarchs international pressure has forced them already to realize that it is not like in the good old days.
I expect that the new president Lobo, with an already tainted administration, will have a very hard time making everything safe for the Honduran oligarchies as it was before. International and internal pressures will grow if he decides to whitewash all the actions of the coup supporters.
That is no strategic threat to the U.S. Furthermore, SK itself is ambivalent about reunification. See this thread.
That is no strategic threat to the U.S. Nor to the NATO countries.
14 people dead? Just as likely they were commited by overzealous paramilitary troops or even gang members rather than the government.
As for blocking opposition media-hasn’t Chavez done that also yet you are silent about it.
I am (second generation) Korean-American and I am willing to do anything and everything in my power to secure Korean reunification. Besides our foreign policy should not be neo-isolationism but a programme to encourage democracies and to eventually form a world government in the case of an extraterrestrial invasion. Yes I do believe in extraterrestrial civilizations and human unity is the only way we have any way of surviving an extraterrestrial invasion.
BrainGlutton in 1938: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan are not strategic threat to the United States. Let them do whatever they want in Europe and China.
Please, I was not born yesterday and I was born and lived in Central America. When the authorities do not investigate or allow others to investigate the abuses it is silly to continue to always assume the innocence of the rulers.
This is not about Chavez, and I was not quiet about it before. The fact is that outfits that supported the coup against Chavez still continue broadcasting on cable in Venezuela, with a big audience (a court decision came hard on the coup supporting TV network for doing more than just supporting the coup, they only lost the right to using the public airwaves, but not the still lucrative cable market)
In Honduras the army and the police invaded the radio and tv station to prevent them from even using cable or any other ways to continue telling the truth (the writers and editors of El Libertador had to go into hiding as they are under death threats). It was thanks to international pressure that many more lives and freedoms are allowed to continue, but just barely. More pressure is needed to make the still de facto rulers to bug off.
Well, we agree on something. Physics being what it is, I’m not too concerned about extraterrestrial invasion (an extinction-level-event asteroid strike is a more realistic concern), but, otherwise, the world needs a government for the same reasons a country needs a government. I think this would be the best (slow and steady) approach for getting from here to there.
Am I saying the rulers are completely innocent? No I’m saying what the likely murderers are.
Venezuela is a fairly poor nation thus banning the TV station from public airwaves is a pretty devestating blow.
The EU is too liberal to form a world government organized under it’s current regulations and systems.
Again, not allowing independent investigations to go forward speaks volumes about who the current rulers are protecting.
That is not what I heard:
http://web.archive.org/web/20071205164431/http://www.laverdad.com/detallenew.asp?idcat=1&idnot=58914
“RCTV again was the most watched channel in Venezuela according to AGB polling.”
I forgot to say it is not just thanks to cable but thanks also to DirecTV that RCTV still continues to oppose Chavez.
Now, back to Honduras, the Michelletti coup government never consulted the courts when the police and military invaded and closed down Channel 36. They did not even had the chance to continue on cable. Once again outside and internal pressure (that was not coming from the right in the USA) caused Micheletti to pull out. But it is clear that the death squads are active once again to harass the opposition.
Still is this anywhere near the scale of tyranny in Chile under Pinochet? Simple yes or no question.
Cite the death squads.
:rolleyes:
I already said that a Pinochet was avoided thanks to internal and outside pressures, Micheletti is however such an idiot that he should not be trusted even after he was forced into pull back, IMHO more lives are at stake if pressure is removed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/world/americas/08joya.html
You constantly reiterated that Honduras would have an another Pinochet. Beside will be apply pressure for the death squads but not for the coup.
It will have it if pressure is removed, it is clear that right now the right wing media is telling all in the US something like “nothing to see here, keep moving”.
It is important that the coup plotters and supporters do not get any profit or recognition for what they did, but it is clear that the new president Lobo will attempt to whitewash everything as any good right winger from Central America does. But international and internal pressure will IMHO make those whitewash plans hard to apply.
Which is what I advocate. Pressure the Honduran government if they commit human rights violation but don’t advocate the resignation of the new government.
In Honduras? Not Zelaya’s supporters, at any rate.
The station in question supported an attempted coup d’etat. If that happened in the U.S., not only would the station lose its license, but all its execs would be in prison for treason.
Read the thread more carefully: It wouldn’t necessarily be under its current systems; every major expansion would require a renegotiation of the terms, a new constitutional convention, as it were, with the applicant countries represented. I think world government is more plausibly achieved by such a piecemeal, evolutionary political process than by all the world’s countries simultaneously agreeing to form one.