Honest arguments for Trump

Politics & Elections
1

I am asking this question completely legitimately, even though my contribution may seem kind of rude. (By the way, if you’re an SDMB old timer who knows me from the turn of the century political threads and especially if you are a conservative, there’s a little bonus for you at the end of this post…)

I was planning to come here and just ask the question “Has anyone around here (given the plethora of great minds, vs. say, Facebook :roll_eyes:) ever made a reasonable, reasonably intelligent, honest… Let me emphasize that: honest and ad hominem-free argument in favor of voting for Trump?”

By ad hominem-free, I am referring to people calling each other names and sneering at each other, not avoiding anything that might be perceived as insulting towards the man himself. After all, it’s impossible to talk about the man himself without saying things that any normal person would find insulting.

I was trying very hard to think of any time that anyone on television or in writing somewhere has made anything resembling a well-reasoned, honest, ad hominem-free argument for Trump, and did not recall any.

The closest that I can come up with is this:

"I am a rich person, and the only people I genuinely care about in this world are also rich.

If Trump is elected to the presidency again, the policies that will go into effect, along with other results arising from his election (I will not insult anybody’s intelligence by claiming that Trump himself has “policies”. For that to be true, he would have to comprehend how government functions, how the world functions and how those two things interact, and we all know that that’s not true.) will either not have any impact on things that actually matter to me and the people I care about, or they will have a profoundly positive effect on me, in that they will make me richer and/or my life will be even easier and more pleasant than it already is, in any number of ways.

Therefore, I am voting for him and hoping others do as well."

I struggled with leaving in “well reasoned”, but reasoning has nothing to do with the repulsiveness of an argument, so I left it in.

The only other argument just fails on a bunch of levels, and the nicest, but still honest version I can think of goes something like:

"I am a no-information voter.

I respond to Trump on a gut level because even at his worst, maybe especially at his worst, he doesn’t make me feel small and stupid and like I’m being laughed at by elitist assholes that also make me feel totally powerless, which makes me really angry. Because who wants to feel totally powerless? Being a Trump voter makes me feel like I am successfully sticking it to those assholes.

In addition, I have known him really well for years as a TV star that I admired because he was so rich and fancy. And I would also like to be rich and fancy.

And I love the way he kept after Obama about his birth certificate. That was great! Electing him is really sticking it to Obama, who is the ultimate elitist asshole! (As well as black, which drives me absolutely insane, but I am probably not going to say that out loud.)"

I couldn’t find a way to say those things honestly without also sounding kind of rude. Apologies.

So does anybody else have anything to add to this or a different way of expressing it or anything? Are there honest arguments for Trump that don’t ultimately boil down these things?

Promised bonus for SDMB OGs:
It is remarkable, (so I’m about to remark on it, yuk yuk :crazy_face:) how powerful and important comparison is to a full understanding of almost anything, really.

In this instance, I am amazed (and crushed as well) at how Trump has led me not to simply an intellectual reevaluation of Bush (Dubya, natch), because that implies sitting around thinking about it. It wasn’t anything that deliberate or dry. What I am here to report, and I do not exaggerate for effect, this is the gods honest, is that the existence of Trump has actually made me feel warm and fuzzy yes, warm and fucking fuzzy towards Bush.

The few times he has appeared in public since Trump started to run, and particularly after he was elected, I found myself seeing him in a radically new light and genuinely feeling warmly towards him.

Of course, I still hate many things he did (and I still believe that Dick Cheney, along with Mitch McConnell :rage: embody true evil in the world) but at the end of the day, he’s a genuine American who loves this country* and a decent human being and he had fucking respect for that mighty office in a way that…ugh! Lemme put it like this: George W. Bush was Abraham Lincoln compared to Trump’s 2 year old baby pulling shit out of his diaper and smearing it all over the Oval. Howzat for a visual?

*As am I. Been teased about my sentimentally patriotic heart by my :sunglasses::sunglasses: liberal friends since Vietnam and Watergate. (Don’t even get me started on how great Nixon was compared to Trump. Hell, Nixon was great just compared to Dick and Mitch! After all, he is the Republican president who created the EPA, among many other things, and had this to say to Congress)

It is seriously offensive to me, someone who doesn’t “take offense” as a rule, when right wingers, conservatives and Magahats accuse liberals of being America haters and make it seem as though patriotism is only legitimate when it features:

  • Absolute certainty that America is the greatest country on earth, in every way.
  • lots of country music, especially about how great America is
  • Passionate love of guns
  • Flags. Lots and lots of flags. (Carried over from our British roots. Thank you, Eddie Izzard.)
  • cisgender heterosexuals
  • fear of a highly judgmental Christian God
  • and, let’s be honest, is experienced exclusively by white people.

It’s also just dumbfounding: based on what? How do they even arrive at that conclusion? Actually, now that I’m saying it out loud – which I am, because I use dictation rather than typing - it probably has something to do with “illegal aliens destroying our country”. Which is stupid, of course, not only because aliens, legal or not, are not destroying our country, but even if they were, liberals and progressives don’t believe that they are and gleefully cackle while they do. At most we could be accused of being incorrect in our understanding, wrongheaded in our view, not actively seeking the destruction of our country, which we, like them, love.

“You can love your country while acknowledging its flaws. To love America unconditionally is not patriotism – it’s nationalism. Nationalism is flawed and delusional. It’s like the difference between a parent who loves his children, but understands they are far from perfect, therefore he guides and teaches them so that they might someday reach their potential… and Will Smith.” - Galanty Miller

2

(To be clear, the quote is from your hypothetical about the typical Trump voter, not your own thoughts.)

I’m just gonna say that this one paragraph (well, technically two) perfectly sums up the psyche (or some might say the “psychosis”) of the typical Trump voter. They’re in the thrall of a demagogue in a way that’s been unprecedented since the zealous participants in the Nuremberg rallies.

3

It has been my experience that when Trump fans come to this board, they don’t bring facts or logic and they come in swinging, hurling insults and picking fights with anyone who responds to them. Because of the blunt-force presentation of their immutable opinions they tend to flame out and they get banned with the quickness.

Now I am a pinko Commie flaming liberal from the socialist republic of Canuckistan so I am in no way, shape or form a Trump fan. I honestly hope that a microscopic black hole forms between his legs and he gets sucked out of the universe through his own ass. But having said that, I must also acknowledge that 70+ million Americans are going to vote for him for their own perfectly valid (to them) reasons. Some people like Trump’s brand of hate and those folks are the ones who feel the gentle caress of the banhammer here. Others though, might simply feel the same way about Harris and Walz as liberals tend to feel about Trump and Vance. The honest, most simple argument I can think of for why someone might like Trump really boils down to Coke vs. Pepsi. That’s about it. But people in that category don’t tend to come here and argue that position.

4

That is bizarre to me. Because what I trust all the folks around here see as clearly as I do is that it isn’t a partisan thing! Bush v. Gore was a partisan thing. All the elections, going back to the beginning, were Coke vs. Pepsi. This is so not that!

This is "not only is the Emperor naked, he is profoundly unwell. His mind, his personality, his psychology, his psyche, his emotions, thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, his brain, the thing that makes him him is broken and has been since the day he was born, and the circumstances of his life, his family, his upbringing, his education, his relationships, his total life experience has only fed the flames of his brokenness, turning him into the closest thing to a non-murderous monster imaginable. He is so divorced from anything resembling normal human experience, normal human relationships, normal human emotions, even the fucked up ones, that he barely rates as a human being at all!

On top of that, he’s obviously experiencing a rapid dementing of his already grossly inadequate brain due to age.

There’s absolutely nothing about this person that is in the remotest way fit or able to be the president of the most powerful nation on earth!

We are nearly 10 years into this and I still wake up every day going “Are you fucking kidding me with this?”

Viewing it as nothing more dramatic or consequential or really, downright shocking than Coke vs.Pepsi is like wondering what to have for dinner, Boeuf Bourguignon or a bowl of barf with cyanide sauce.

It brings to mind what I consider the single greatest bit anybody ever has done about Trump, which is John Mulaney’s perfect analogy:

Here’s how I try to look at it, and this is just me: this guy being the president, it’s like there’s a horse loose in a hospital,” Mulaney says. “I think eventually everything’s going to be okay, but I have no idea what’s going to happen next. And neither do any of you, and neither do your parents, because there’s a horse loose in the hospital! ”

It goes on from there if you’ve never seen it, look it up.

5

Plenty of Trump supporters are 100% honest. It just depends on whether you think their argument is for something good or bad.

For instance, when Trumpers say they like Trump because he will enact anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant and anti-abortion policies, they’re being fully honest. (Although the argument for those things may be peppered with lies.) And he has indeed. It just depends on whether you think that’s good or bad.

6

The day after the debate, Trump and Harris met again at the 9/11 commemoration, and it was reported that he said to her “good job”, apparently meant to congratulate her for her performance at the debate. Moments like that make me think that Trump’s public persona is the ultimate salesman. You know that “always be closing” guy in Glengarry Glen Ross? Trun him up to 11, and that’s Trump. He’ll make a racist remark, mock a disabled reporter, anything it takes to get on his customers’ good side and get them to sign on the bottom of that sales contract. He’s been doing this act for so long that he can turn it on and off like a light switch. Who knows what he actually believes.

I’ve heard people make that defence of Trump; that it’s all an act, and he doesn’t really believe those things he’s saying. It may even be true. But let’s take that argument to its logical conclusion. What kind of person would even pretend to be so odious, and craven, and unfeeling? Who sees the world as a continuous opportunity to sell, sell, sell; to bring out people’s worst insticts to line his own pockets? It’s not really an improvement.

I’m a bit reminded of the arms sales to Iran that happened under Ronald Reagan. The question everyone was asking was “what did he know, and when did he know it?” My response was that it doesn’t matter. Either Reagan directed the sales, or it happened right under his nose without him knowing. Either one of those is awful. But, because people couldn’t decide which awful thing he’d done, he wound up unaccountable for either one.

It’s much easier to rouse people to action if you say that their opponents aren’t different, or misguided, but actually evil. You want your side to be angry, so you impart the worst possible motives onto the other side. I see Democrats do it, too.

7

“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.” ― Lyndon B. Johnson

That’s MAGA in a nutshell. It’s not new. Trump just tapped into it better than anyone else has in the US.

I’d say the other “argument for Trump” is Dems telling everyone the economy is great when people are not feeling it is great. Clinton made this mistake in 2016. And I think we are here again. Pointing to a solid stock market doesn’t help when people are seeing much higher prices at the grocery stores and have no hope of owning a home and so on. There is a real pain being felt by the middle class and dems keep telling people everything is great. It comes across badly.

8

Excellent points about Trump’s “act”.

As far as both sides being guilty of assigning evil motives to the other to advance their own agenda…? We’re getting into serious debate territory for a thread of its own, and I deleted explaining what that was because as much time as I’ve spent here today, I don’t have this kind of time to give to this going forward and that could easily blow up…so I will leave it to others to pick up that torch and run with it if they want to.

:wink:

9

I love the Johnson quote.

The Democrats are far from saintly, but they would have to do a whole lot worse than that to justify inflicting another Trump presidency on the planet. Or rather than another, a new “Trumpier” presidency. God save us.

10

I agree. Just answering the OP as best I understood it.

11

This is a really smart thread. :+1:t3:

I have thought this about G.W., too. I could date a guy who voted for him. Hell, I could date a guy who voted for Nixon. But I wouldn’t meet a guy for coffee if he told me he was a trumper.

This isn’t Coke v. Pepsi. It’s Coke and Pepsi v. a glass jar of scorpions suspended in a beaker of sulphuric acid.

Besides the honest <gag> reasons MAGAs give for voting for DJT, what about the honest reasons non-MAGAs give for still being undecided?? :tired_face:

“I don’t know enough about Kamala. Is she Black or Indian or what? Can she fix grocery prices? Gasoline prices? I need to know more about where she stands on things. Anyway, she laughs weird.”

Who cares what you know or don’t know about her? You know all you need to know about Donald Trump. Who cares where Kamala stands on anything? She doesn’t want to destroy the rule of law in this country and become a dictator-- that’s where she stands!

I would vote for her if she were in a coma.

Sorry if this is a hijack. I can’t sleep and I’ve been ruminating on this and wanted to get it off my chest.

12

The difference is, the Democrats are correct. Or rather they would be if they really were more willing to do that, but few do; they’ve spent decades bending over backwards trying to pretend the Republicans are well meaning. Something that has led to loss after loss and encouraged the Republicans to get worse and worse. The Democrat’s own base tends to simply not believe they’ll do anything because the Democrats are more interested in pandering to the Republicans than helping the people who vote for them.

The Democrats very seldom admit the Republicans are “evil”; instead they make excuses for the Republicans and talk about bipartisanship while the Republicans scream about how they want to hurt and persecute people. And then do it when they can. This “bothsides” argument just does not match reality.

13

Honesty would be:

I feel despairing and afraid. Since I am a macho white guy, I can’t admit to feelings like those; but hate and anger are always okay. Trump gives me an arena to experience triumphant vengeance with my thousands of brothers. I love him for that.

Trump makes me believe we can go back to a time when I didn’t feel spit on by the smart educated powerful people who are enabling all the groups I used to feel superior to, to get ahead of me while I am falling farther and farther behind. The obvious fact that he is a crazy nasty person is easy to overlook when he gives me that hope.

14

Harris has promised to rein in grocery bills through some sort of government action, which seems like price controls. Someone can honestly believe that this would be a terrible path to go down, and would be willing to vote for Trump to avoid any sort of national price control scheme.

Trump has promised to shut down the southern border and deport lots of immigrants. Someone can honestly hate the changes that have come to their local neighborhood due to immigration, or to the country, or whatever, and could vote for Trump in order to get the US closer to what they remember growing up.

Someone can honestly believe that lower taxes and a much smaller regulatory regime will allow the US to be more productive.

These aren’t my beliefs and I think they are factually incorrect in lots of ways, but there are certainly honest people who subscribe to them. I think it’s a shame that this thread went off in such a typical way.

15

How can it be a hijack when you’re responding directly to my opening post? Don’t be silly girl, come sit by me and tell me all about how you made those teeny tiny letters, I want that! And thank you for appreciating the thread…

16

Are you, though?

The OP pretty much poisons the well, and predictably in just the 14 posts so far this thread has already become yet another bashing Trump and his supporters thread. I don’t believe that this is a question that can be legitimately debated on this Board, because Trump voters might as well be aliens to most of the posters here.

17

Awww, shucks…<ThelmaLou hangs her head digs her toe in the ground>

Note: < small > blahblahblah </ small >

Take out the spaces that I have put within the “<>” tags. If you put the word “big” inside the pointy brackets, you’ll get
really big letters

You can use bold & italics with the tags, too.

End of note

18

Good luck with the thread. I’ve tried to ask similar questions in the past, but have been met with, “ANYONE who votes for Trump is a racist misogynist, and if they say otherwise, they are lying.” :roll_eyes:

In response to your question, I think SOME folk just buy into the “team” mindset. Same way they have ALWAYS been a Packer fan, they think of themselve as a Republican. So they will always vote for the Republican.

I suspect what Ulfreida says also explains many supporters. White christians are used to an America in which they ran things and enjoyed privilege. They are confused and scared that that seems to be threatened. They don’t dislike women and minorities (so long as they keep “in their place.”)

Then there is just plain selfishness. Many think Rs support policies which will enrich them personally or increase their current wealth. I find that especially curious when applied to middle class workers, who have traditionally been harmed more than hurt by trickle down voodoo.

19

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. This time I’ll present my argument a little differently.

The election ballot really has several candidates on it. It actually looks like this:

    trump (Whatever but Mostly Fascist Party)
    [Whoever] (Republican Party)
    Harris (Democratic Party)
    [Whoever] (Raging Woke Socialist America-Hating Librul Party]

When a MAGAt steps into the booth their eyes see this:

    trump (Whatever but Mostly Fascist Party)
    [Whoever] (Raging Woke Socialist America-Hating Librul Party]

When a fatcat or country club republican steps into the booth their eyes see this:

    [Whoever] (Republican Party)
    Harris (Democratic Party)
Or this
    [Whoever] (Republican Party)
    [Whoever] (Raging Woke Socialist America-Hating Librul Party]
depending on how much Faux kool-aid they’ve drunk.

Meanwhile the typical Democrat sees

    trump (Whatever but Mostly Fascist Party)
    Harris (Democratic Party)
And finally the extra far left hyper-Progressive folks have their own special ballot:
    trump (Whatever but Mostly Fascist Party)
    [Whoever] (Democratic Party in name only that belongs to Wall Street not the People)


My conclusion:
Once we all understand that there are 5 different ballots being handed out to the public the flow of both polling and the actual election makes a LOT more sense.


To address the OP’s question directly within my framework …
IMO any honest argument for trump cannot possibly be an argument for trump qua trump. Instead, it’s an argument based on the fatcat / country club ballot. To those folks seeing that ballot the choice is between good old traditional Republican ideas they favor and either traditional Democratic or crazed Woke Progressive ideas they dislike or hate respectively.

20

This is exactly right. Coming to THIS board, and asking this question, is either bad faith or extremely naive. I suspect the former. It’s like a 12 year old asking his friends “serious question guys, why does a monkey eat his own shit?”. While there may be legitimate scientific and social reasons why a monkey might do so, you’re not going to get those reasons adequately explored amongst a group of immature kids on the playground. Instead, you’re going to get a bunch of shit-eating jokes, which is essentially what we are getting here on a left dominated discussion board, i.e. a bunch of Trump-equivalent shit-eating comments.