“Liberal ghouls” is the common way I see leftists refer to liberals, so yeah.
Indeed, the literal translation of bona fide is “good faith”. The way I feel it, an argument must be grounded in reality to be a bona fide argument, just a feeling is not an argument, so it can not be a bona fide argument. It will be a bona fide feeling, just an opinion.
I guess my deeply felt opinion was not enough to convince you? You expected a proper, well reasoned argument? Hm, yeah, I believe I see the problem. No idea how to solve it.
The best good-faith argument for Trump is probably that he took over a mindlessly warmongering party and turned it into a (still mindless, but) more war-skeptical party. I’m diametrically opposed to Trump’s stance on Russia and the Ukraine war: it’s wrong and dangerous. But on the general issue of US interventionism abroad, Trump supporters could theoretically mount a good-faith case.
I think at least some of it is based on the idea that he might say odious or ridiculous things, but he won’t actually do those things.
I’m looking out my office window at stacks of containers from overseas, and I know many of my genuinely intelligent coworkers will vote for the guy who says he will levy trillions of dollars of tariffs on the lifeblood of this business. A guy whose public statements fundamentally fail to show an understanding of how tariffs impact the economy, and whose tariffs, if implemented, will screw our company ten ways to Sunday.
They cannot possibly believe that Trump will enact the tariffs he says he’s going to.
Except he had to be constantly discouraged and blocked from attacking other nations. including the idea of nuking North Korea and blaming someone else, according to some reports; and he has said that one reason he needs immunity is to avoid indictment for nuking a city. He’s not anti-war, he’s just too erratic to maintain a single direction enough to easily start one.
And his stance on Ukraine is pro-war; he just wants the Russians to win and genocide the Ukrainians.
Of course I do not desire a “fake balance.” Instead, my recollection (possibly incorrect) is that while the boards skewed left (and I’d argue that an intelligent, compassionate opinion skews left), that there used to be more well-presented centrist/middle right opinions/posters. Now the goalposts have changed such that what passes for IMO moderate views are considered conservative. Just suggests somewhat of an echo chamber effect.
As I said… Yeah, perhaps not “all the way left” in terms of “Occupy Wall Street” and anarchy folk. But certainly as far left as I encountered in the various UU congregations I’ve been associated with.
To be fair, I’m not sure what passes for a “conservative” or Republican position these days. I would suggest fiscal conservatism, a strong military, reference to certain traditional christian values on social issues, opposition to regulation… But I don’t hear many politicians - or plain folk - expressing such views lately.
I tend to be a rational Humanist myself. But a great many folk seem to believe that faith is an adequate basis for very strong arguments. While I readily dismiss their belief in mysticism, I am not as ready to dismiss each and every one of their positions that derive from their make-believe.
This forum is still full of “centrist/middle right opinions/posters”; the only real difference is that the far Right has gone so masks-off these days that they tend to end up either driving away everyone else from a platform or being banned themselves. The rules of this forum just aren’t compatible with them, so anyone leaning that way is either banned or left of their own inclination for one of their own places.
I live and work amongst Trump supporters.
Their honest arguments for Trump are based on misinformation
Full stop.
Even the smart, educated ones have abandoned all critical thinking in the realm of news and politics, and prefer right wing spin over reasoned consideration.
So, their “honest” argument for Trump is usually that the country did well under him for 3 years, Covid was an aberration, and republicans support a more respectable approach to society, a more patriotic support for the military, and a more fiscally advantageous approach to the economy.
Oh, and Biden and Harris have been a disaster. Inflation is a problem, and we have a porous southern border.
It is all nonsense. It is based on lies.
But there ya’ go.
Which is a problem with the “is their an honest argument” question, since being “honest” about opinions based on lies and willful ignorance is only “honest” in a highly technical sense. It just means they’ve outsourced the lying to somebody else.
I concede that they opinions and/or their feelings may be bona fide, that is, in good faith. It probably happens more often than not. I just argue that that stance does not amount to an argument. An argument is meant to convince. I don’t dismiss each and every one of “their” positions, it’s just that they don’t change my opinion. If I disagreed at the beginning, I will still disagree, but if I agreed, perhaps for similar gut feelings, I will still agree afterwards.
That too, often.
If you do a little digging you might find that some of the conservatives you think were forced out left or were banned because they went a bit overboard and thought that having a minority opinion gave them leeway, and/or thought that the crap that was allowed on conservative websites was actually normal and would be allowed here.
For the most part, they changed, not us. If you can come up with a conservative that was forced out for doing what liberals on this board are getting away with, I will listen, of course.
I would agree with this. The key to me is “abandoned” critical thinking. They are not dumb, they are capable of it and do it all the time in other areas of their life. Many that I know are smarter than most on this board. Easily.
Every so often someone will start describing a story to me they believe in their core and before they are even done, will go…this feels like misinformation…this is misinformation, right? For some reason talking to me, or anyone they trust outside their news bubble who will actually listen without beating them up for talking, forces their critical thinking to kind of stay engaged and they can hear themselves and figure it out. Even if it’s not admitted because of pride, they still get that ah-ha moment. It’s psychologically fascinating to me. It’s made me a big believer in listening and not passing judgment.
You’ve really hit the nail on the head when you say they abandon their critical thinking. It’s really easy to do though without even knowing it’s happening.
The reality is it goes both ways. It’s not like I’m thinking critically about who I am voting for, or why.
I would love to see the unedited footage from Jordan Klepper’s adventures in Magaland some time.
If by chance you’ve never seen it go to YouTube and look up Jordan Klepper MAGA and you will see why I say this in response to your post.
The edited stuff that makes it on air is jaw dropping. That adult human beings can feed themselves and think like that, or rather, not think like that is beyond belief. It is so over-the-top sometimes that you think this has to be staged. But I’m pretty sure it’s not.
Right, but that’s you. But for many, particularly the deeply religious, FAITH is in fact the overriding motivator. Many, probably most people don’t carefully reason themselves to a set of conclusions. They pick a result based on what they are comfortable with based on upbringing and world view and backwards engineer a rationalized path to reach that point. Humans are fantastic at rationalizing - it’s perhaps our most universal intellectual skill. Trump becomes a fantasy candidate that will accomplish the things that are important to you and all this talk of him being a danger can just be dismissed as the normal mudslinging of politics.
Also I get the Trump as Cyrus the Great argument. If based on your religious faith you want all abortions banned, it may not matter enough to you that Trump is an adulterous, felonious vulgarian who may subvert democracy. He will, through quid pro quo if nothing else, be the instrument of achieving your desired outcome. And at the end of the day what good is Harris’ democracy if she allows millions of the unborn to be slaughtered?
You may have seen this, but here’s a good clip of Jordan Klepper and his time interviewing MAGA and has he ever changed anyone’s mind.
Has Klepper Ever Changed a Trump Supporter’s Mind? (4min video)
As for me, I’m not personally dealing with anyone I’d call MAGA. One for also voted for the late Sheila Jackson Lee. How do you reconcile that with the typical image of “MAGA”?
Those are exactly my boss’s reasons for supporting Trump.
He thinks everyone should vote solely based on how a politician’s policies affect them economically.
Of course there is no thought for people less fortunate than him, or marginalized people, or protecting democracy and our democratic values, or protecting the environment and responding to climate change, or the fact that Republican administrations are actually worse for the economy than Democratic administrations.
Is that right-wing code for “screw the deficit, my grandkids will pay for it”?
To resurrect PJ O’Rourke’s quote in 2016, even if you think she’s wrong, “She’s wrong within normal parameters.”
Honestly, I think one of the main problems with the “undecided” is that it’s another ‘she’ they’re deciding about.
My question would have been, fiscally advantageous to whom?
Well yes, it was inevitable.
Trying to get into the mind of a Trump voter, I get something like this:
“The Democratic Party seems to be more concerned about things like racial and gender identity than the concerns of hard-working voters like me. I see a tyranny of over-educated “experts” who failed with the pandemic but still want to dictate every aspect of my life. There’s an illegal immigrant crisis that they don’t really care about. The economy did pretty well under Trump and we didn’t have this awful inflation. I’m tired of my tax money going to support foreign wars and want foreign countries to pay their fair share. Sure, Trump’s done some bad things, but not that much worse than other politicians. I see my country going downhill, and we need Republicans in power to reverse the slide.”
It should be obvious from my posts about Trump that I don’t buy into this, but close to half of voters seem to identify with significant parts of it.
Postscript: Also, what kenobi_65 posted.