They don’t need thousands of dollars worth. They just need one.
But how are you going to get their “thousands of dollars” worth of guns if you don’t know where they are or what they own? Are you going to search every single place he may have access? His mothers house? His friend Daves house? Not everybody keeps their guns all in one place.
Excellent argument for comprehensive gun registration.
You’re forgetting, I oppose red flag laws. But thank you for bringing up the ol’ slippery slope!
Isn’t that one of those rhetorical fallacies?
A fallacy is the notion that a gun control law will be the magic bullet (pun intended) that will break the back of violent crime. None of them ever deliver on their promises.
So… gun owners are basically criminals, people who enact long term plans to violate the law?
What a surprise, gun owners are more concerned about the government taking away their weapons because they’ve become a dangerous unhinged person, than they are concerned about becoming a dangerous unhinged person with a gun.
ETA:
This isn’t because gun laws don’t work, it’s because of criminal gun owners, and the “law abiding” gun owners who protect them.
So you’d rather see someone’s liberty taken away, even though that’s protected by the 5th and 14th Amendments, than having their guns taken away? Second Amendment rights are are more important than liberty rights under the 5th and 14th Amendments?
Yeah, that’s the thing I’m seeing in a lot of the debate now, including literally in the floor debate at Congress last week - arguments from the Right that this can be easily handled with the involuntary committal laws already in place.
(Wait, honest question: isn’t involuntary committal a mark against you in a future background check?)
Just what I was going to say. And yes, it will take more than a decade before we actually register the bulk of guns held by people who don’t want their guns registered (which is going to have a large overlap with people who use guns to kill other people.) But you have to start somewhere. And maybe, in a couple of decades, we can tame our gun problem.
Funny that you mention that,
But, hey, it’s clearly the second most important amendment or they wouldn’t have written it second right?
That’s a great argument for a national gun registry.
You can imagine the thoughts of the person who has been involuntarily committed: “I’m locked up against my will, but thank God, my guns are free!”
Only the kind of criminal-minded person who shouldn’t have a gun in the first place would plot and scheme to hide weapons away specifically because they want to violate the law. So if we find that (general you) you’re hiding a spare, IE are in possession of an illegal firearm, you should go to jail and lose your future right to bear arms (since you’ve shown beyond reasonable doubt that you are the sort of person who cannot be trusted with a gun).
Yeah, the very notion that “Red Flag Laws” that take folk’s pew pews away for a few days is an infringement on their rights and may be abused, but “Red Flag Laws” that lock them up in a mental hospital for a few days somehow isn’t an infringement on their rights and won’t be abused is just mind boggling.
Since the firearms industry is – first, foremost, and above all else – an industry …
I wonder if those who profit from the sale of guns (yes: I know) will avail themselves of @pkbites logic and inform gun buyers that red flag laws create unacceptable risk to them (the gun buyer):
“The answer isn’t fewer guns; it’s more guns” is anything but new in the NRA playbook.
Is our friend, here, just foreshadowing ?
Millions of gun owners, including me, will refuse to register their guns. Registration simply won’t work.
Millions of gun owners will violate the law? Fine, that’s what we have police for.
Maybe people who are so easily willing to become criminal felons shouldn’t be trusted with firearms in the first place. By all means, disobey the law and out yourself as a criminal.
So taking the (legally purchased) weapons away from frustrated kids doesn’t work to mitigate school shootings?
Do you really think there is any evidence to support that thesis or do you agree that is about as dumb as it sounds?
Didn’t we just have a dozen posts debating whether the guns and rounds were worth $7,000 or $10,000? They need the assault rifle, rounds, body armor and helmet (otherwise the security guard might end the shooting right at the start) in addition to however much stuff gets seized by the red flag law.
Well as several have mentioned, this is a great argument for registration.
But also, the point of red flag laws is largely that concerned adults who know the person can flag them as a particular risk. So, yes, in most cases they will be aware of their arsenal and that’s part of why they got flagged.
And yes, maybe the nutter will have extra supplies elsewhere that their family / friend / cop didn’t know about. This is terrible argument for never seizing the guns we *do* know about.
I would prefer that if you quote a section of my text, you actually address the full text you quote. Because I did, you know, include the text after the dash you know. For example, I’m not a big fan of the option under the FL law where you can have a one full year plus one request for renewal - that strikes me as burdensome since you have to pay out of pocket for a lawyer or argue the case yourself. But 2 weeks (and I’d probably be happy with up to 2-3 months as an option)? No, I don’t find that burdensome. For that matter, these laws are generally written that they can be contested, and depending on the state a large portion are denied, which would inform how a properly implemented law would/should work.
There are lots of other quibbles, which is why in a perfect world I would get to write the legislation myself complete with a ‘real world’ version that makes my intents clear, but that doesn’t happen, thus a general “if properly implemented” was included.
Back to the rest of your post. First, “effective in any way?” Let’s be clear, by that statement, if taken literally, then one saved life means it was effective. So if you want to nitpick, you, as other posters pointed out, admit it would likely be effective by that standard.
But that’s fine, you’ve also admitted later on that you are concerned that it’s a slippery slope, and guess what, I agree! After all, if you’ve been reading the thread, you know I’m one of the moderate gun owners on the board. I see the concerns, and I’ve mentioned the whys and wherefores in a dozen other gun posts. But I’m looking more at the min-max POV thread we’ve been working on. I think it’s inevitable that gun laws change as culture changes, up to and including the repeal (or repeal and replace) of the 2nd amendment a few decades down the line.
In the meantime, laws that balance the rights of the individual (such as the 2nd) and the rest of the population should be considered, especially ones like red flag laws that are based on a belief in a clear and present (and generally semi-immediate danger) to self and others. Sure, it won’t stop all school shootings, although your scenario about hidden guns really tends to apply to old folks with a lot of hidden and older guns, rather than younger shooters who will show up via FFL transfers.
And for that matter, although this thread is provoked by the school shootings, I suspect Red flag laws can and do a much better job of catching near suicides and (probably mostly) domestic violence. This may not get the headlines that school shootings do, but it’s a horrible fact of life. And in these cases, the people most likely to advise the police of a flag, are the sort to know how many guns the owner has.
Lastly, as a responsible gun owner, fie on you for suggesting a firearm you own be left outside your own control, even if it’s with a good friend. Whether as a ‘hedge’ against having yours taken or not, I don’t trust anyone to properly secure or safely use my firearms, no more than I would leave a carry gun unsupervised even for a moment so that it didn’t get in my way.