Housing for the disabled

I’m not sure if this is a Great Debate, but I do want the opinions of people who post here, so I’m going to put it here and if the mods want to move it, fine.

I was just read the riot act at by some woman I don’t know, who informed me that I discriminate against the disabled. Here’s the situation:

I have an apartment in my basement that I rent to offset part of my mortgage. I’m in the process of getting a new tenant. This woman (whom I will call Lana because that was her name) called to arrange a showing. I meet her at the apartment and she has a young man in tow who is very quiet but acting a little “off,” for lack of a better word. He’s sort of rocking, and plucking at his clothes, and gazing at the ceiling. Nothing threatening, just not all “there,” if you know what I mean. So we go through the apartment, and then the woman advises me that she is actually trying to rent it for her son (the odd young man). He has schizophrenia and is on full disability, including Section Eight (Federal housing subsidies).

I told Lana I was not comfortable renting the apartment to her son. She said that they were having a very difficult time finding him housing (which I can understand) because no one wants to rent to a person who is mentally ill. Lana became very insistent that I rent it to him, and I became more and more adamant that I would not, and the end result was the accusation (at loud volume) that I discriminate against the disabled.

So now I’m conflicted. On the one hand, I fully appreciate that this young man is trying to be independent and is entitled to respect and (hopefully) a hand from the community, including reasonable housing. I absolutely believe in attempting to help people who are trying to overcome difficulties and I do not (Lana’s accusations notwithstanding) think all mentally ill people are dangerous or “second-class citizens.”

But, as a single woman living alone, I just am not comfortable having a schizophrenic man living in my basement. Lana says his illness is mostly “memory problems,” but the fact is that he is so disabled by his illness that he cannot hold a job. Lana says he is on medication, but the fact is that I am not comfortable being the one who finds out what he’s like off medication, should he decide to stop taking it (as I understand sometimes – rarely, but sometimes – happens).

So, TM, please tell me what you think, both of my problem or, if you like, about society’s general responsibility to its disabled citizens. I guess I’m talking moral as opposed to legal, since (a) I don’t think it would illegal to refuse to rent the apartment to anyone, no matter their level of ability, who made me feel unsafe; and (b) I do have legitimate other reasons for not renting it to him, namely concerns about his ability to make the rent, considering he does not hold a job and the Federal subsidy is only a partial one. But having Lana scream at me that I’m an discriminating bigot has unsettled me. I mean, I can’t argue with “discriminating,” since, justified or not, I obviously did, but I’m really upset by “bigot.” What think you?

Basically the way I see it, it’s your’s to rent so you can rent it to whomever you like.

Whoa, that’s a tough one. Really bites when you find yourself sounding like NIMBY. I personally wouldn’t rent to him if I could get away with it legally. Morally, I’m not the biggest advocate of the ADA, so my opinion shouldn’t surprise you. And what little I know about schizophrenia is that it certainly is potentially more severe than moodiness. To me, it would be a different question if he had, say, mild retardation.

I have no idea what the legalities are. I don’t think you have a personal responsibility to commit yourself and your property in a particular manner to support your belief that disabled persons should have access to certain housing. I think you should be able to choose how you help others.

Just wondering, why isn’t Lana letting him live with her? If your reluctance makes you a discriminating bigot, what does his mother’s make her?

On a moral level, I support 100% your right to make decisions with respect to your own property, and who will be allowed to use it. If your decision is based in concern for your potential physical and financial well-being, then it is nobody’s business to tell you that you are wrong. IMHO.

IANAL (repeated several times)
check with a lawyer familiar with property issues BUT, I believe that in the case you describe (renting out part of your own domicile) you are allowed to rent to whom you choose on whatever basis.

Be careful, however, once you start renting out your property, there are other potential legal situations you may or may not be inclined to deal with (not the least are income issues, liabilities with your insurance, etc)

Could she refuse to rent to people based on race? I don’t know.

most of the laws regarding discrimination are in regards to “public housing”. If I’m renting out space in my own privately owned home it may in fact be considered something other than “public housing”. Know I’ve seen stuff about folks wanting to rent out their garage but only to a “married couple”. let me repeat however, IANAL

And, if some one was yelling at me about discrimination suits I’d be either A. deciding to mow lawns for extra cash instead or B. getting a lawyer.

Legally, yes. Until the building is past a certain number of units.

But I think the OP is more concerned about the moral issue (with regards to which I basically agree with the previous posters).

According to their web site the Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing based on race or color, national origin, religion, sex, famial status (including children under the age of 18 living with parents or legal custodians; pregnant women and people securing custody of children under 18), and handicap (Disability).

However, according to the site and what I learned working at an apartment complex, if you are renting a room, or apartment, attached to your personal home it is not covered by the Fair Housing Act. I believe that you can choose to not rent someone a room in your house for any reason or no reason.

Here is the link to the Fair Housing page.

http://www.hud.gov/fhe/fheact.html

Thanks for the link, Zumba. It was 4 units.

Well, the legal side of it was not really concerning me. Not that I looked it up, which I didn’t – though my thanks to the person who did – but because it didn’t make sense to me that the ADA or any other law would require an individual to rent an apartment in their home to someone who made them feel unsafe. And I don’t think the “race-based discrimination” analogy is a very good one, because no one becomes a danger to himself or others by virtue of being a particular race.

I guess the bottom line for me is feeling safe. I just wouldn’t with a fully disabled schizophrenic in the basement. Maybe I would have reached a different conclusion if his mental illness was of a different type, or not so severe (Lana says it’s “mild,” but based on his behavior, I don’t believe her), or I lived with someone else instead of alone, or I owned an apartment building as opposed to a house. But under the circumstances, I think I made the right decision. I just wish they hadn’t made me feel like a bad person because of it. Sigh.

My question is why is the mother trying to unload her son on your lap? It seems to me she’s the one who should be living with him, not you.

I do not think you need give this any more thought. You are not obligated legally or morally.

Well, since both Dinsdale and Sailor asked . . .

My assumption is the foster independence for the young man (who must be in his mid-twenties) and, assuming he’s capable to live on his own, give him the opportunity to do so. The problem they’re encountering is that apparently no one is willing to take a chance on him. I do think that’s unfortunate and I understand their frustration, but the bottom line is that I, personally, cannot take a chance on him, and I can’t be held responsible for the fact that no one else will, either.

But I can and do find that sad. I guess my conflict is that I feel like I’m contributing to a real societal problem – the refusal to allow the mentally ill to be treated as equally as possible and at a minimum as full members of society – but I keep coming back to the conclusion that I don’t think I personally have any choice.

Is this liberal guilt? But I’m not even a liberal!

That should read “my assumption is they are looking for an apartment for him to foster independence . . . .”

A schizophrenic is a person who has lost touch with reality. We call those people psychotic. He or she has hallucinations and or delusions. it is familial and there is no cure, unlike other mental illnesses. It can be controlled somewhat, but not cured. There is no such thing as a “mild” schizophrenic because, by definition, it is a serious psychotic condition.

Disclaimer: I do NOT want to take this thread to Cuba or anywhere else. I have no intention of permanently hijacking Jodi’s thread, and in fact won’t respond to responses to this to avoid doing so. But . . .

I just wanted to observe that this is precisely the kind of thing that comes up in the “We Hate Libertarians” threads all the time. In those threads, as in this one, I support the property owner’s right to make decisions as to who will live on her property. Are any of those who advocate the taking of other people’s property for forcible charity going to advocate that Jodi or some other property owner be made to rent to Lana’s son against their will? Or do you realize at the gut level that that would be unethical?

The flip side of Jodi’s conundrum, the “liberal guilt” that she feels (trust me–take a Zantac and it’ll go away :wink: ) grows in part from the fact that there are not adequate structures in place to help people like this. Why? For a very simple reason–the schizophrenic do not have the political clout to make the government do things. The money that Lana gives to the government (and Jodi, for that matter) goes into the pockets of the dairy farmers and the tobacco growers and the NEA and AFDC, but, more to the point, it goes into the pockets of those in the bureacracies whose jobs it is to hand it out.

If Lana and Jodi were allowed to decide for themselves how to allocate their resources, perhaps Lana could buy a property on which her son could live independently, and Jodi, if she were so inclined, could help her, as could other like-minded people.

Sorry, Jodi–back to your thread. :slight_smile:

Jodi, were you a friend of mine, I would advise that you refuse him housing based on his sex. The psychosis is really just another nail in the coffin.

I would pose the question like this: is your right to be safe in your own home greater than his right to easily find housing?

Seems to me that you being able to enjoy life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness trumps being able to get an apartment right away.

IF she was serious about getting hiom housing, she should have provided you with medical records and a criminal background check. If the kid is safe, then she should be the one proving it.

Good for you for standing tough.

Jodi, I think you are in the right. I worked with chronic schizophrenics for 8 years (who lived in the community in their own apartments) and they are generally a very unpredictable lot. I don’t know who told you that they sometimes go off their medication, but in my experience one of the roughest battles we faced was making sure they took their meds. Most patients were wholly unreliable in this regard. Many flat out refused to take meds (as is their legal right).

These patients were also among the most unstable I worked with. I had experiences with several who were as nice as could be for years, and then one day had them come after me for reasons I was unable to determine. One gentleman who had been among our most amiable one day took an axe to the walls and furniture of his apartment and finally threw his television out of the 5th story window as his grand finale.

In addition to the problem of stability, they were generally really lousy tenants. Of the 30 or so I worked with, only one kept her apartment in a condition approaching normal. The rest ranged from a cluttered mess to absolutely infectious. And this was with staff coming once a week to help them clean. I honestly have no idea how they managed to create so much dirt.

Lastly, before anyone jumps down my throat, let me reiterate that I am relating my personal experiences. I am not suggesting that all persons who suffer from schizophrenia behave in the manner I have described. In the course of my work, the above it what I experienced. Your experiences may be different.

Jodi, my brother is schizophrenic, and I think you did the right thing. I wouldn’t want him living in the same building with his landlady being a single woman, because he doesn’t react well to any kind of authority figures.
This may be particular to him, but I doubt it. He currently lives in a two-flat, but the other people in the building don’t own it, his landlord is an impersonal corporation that he can’t really focus on it.
I’m not sure about your renting out your basement apartment to a male if you’re a single woman either, but that’s off topic.

Not to mention that making your apartment suitable for section 8 housing is sometimes a real pain.

Lana should be able to find someplace for her son that qualifies for section 8 in a larger building or something owned by a corporation easily enough. As for her yelling at you, I had the same problem some time back when my ex and I owned a 3 flat. I told one applicant that we wouldn’t rent to them, and when she accused me of being racist (she was white, her husband was black), I told her I didn’t care if she was green but I wasn’t excited about her history of being evicted twice in the past 3 years.

Jodi, I have a very close relative who is mentally ill. You would be quite safe having him as your tenant.

And yes, those posters who suggested that the reason the mother was trying to “unload” her son on you was so that he could take a step toward self-sufficiency and an independent life were right. It is widely recognized that one of the things the mentally ill most need is a chance to learn to be functional in society as a whole, not just under the sheltering wings of immediate family members. For those posters who obviously either didn’t think of this or didn’t care, I would just ask: has it crossed your mind that the mother of a mentally ill man is usually a few decades older than he is, and in the ordinary course of nature will die well before he does? Do you think a mother doesn’t worry about what will happen to her son when she’s no longer around, if he’s never learned to live as an independent adult?

So yes, you discriminated, and perhaps were slightly bigoted in making your decision based, it seems, largely on your gut reaction of fear and distrust because this guy acted so “abnormal”. (I assure you my relative can seem somewhat abnormal (although not in that way) sometimes (and being in a sense under the “inspection” of total strangers is one of the most stressful things for the mentally ill, so I’m not surprised this guy didn’t come off too well), but it wouldn’t make him dangerous.) If you had really wanted to make an informed decision, you could have asked for an opportunity to speak to the son’s psychiatrist and get his opinion on the prudence of this.

That said, you probably basically did the right thing in refusing. Schizophrenia is a difficult condition to deal with, and for a single female to share a house with a single male who’s a stranger to her is iffy even when no (apparent) mental illness is involved. Also, the guy’s mother was out of line in yelling at you. I feel sorry for her anyway, because I’m sure she’s having a hell of a time dealing with all the ignorance and fear she encounters in just trying to make life better for her son, but she shouldn’t have taken it out on you.

Nonetheless, yes, you should be feeling a little guilty; not specifically for deciding not to rent to him, but for the symbolic act of recognizing that some suffering people need help and not enough people are willing to help them, but nonetheless refusing to help them yourself. It’s not a thing you can feel good about, even when you know that the alternative would have been a bad decision. I recommend going to the website for the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill and taking the trouble to write to your reps to support the bills they’re endorsing. After all, what this guy really needs is an environment where he can develop some independence while still being somewhat supervised and supported: a halfway house or some such thing. You can’t provide this yourself and shouldn’t try, but you can sure let your congressfolks know that you think it ought to be provided!