How about a Statewide re-election, or throw out Florida?

Great Debates
21

You know, I really am an idiot. Sorry about that.

Not only did I mistype ‘urge’, I ignored the actual title of the thread. Apparently, the thread does concern a revote.

On that, I have to say I’m against it. I’m a Gore supporter, but there is no way to make a revote fair to the candidates, the state, or the rest of the country. In fact, it would be much less fair than the botched election they just finished. Note that I agree it was messed up, I just don’t think there is a fair remedy.

The only possible outcomes, in my mind, are to work out the problems and certify the election, or to not certify it, in which case Florida doesn’t send any electors to college. In the latter case, of course, the House would decide it.

22

I agree here, but why throw out all of Florida? We copuld just throw out Palm Beach.

You cannot possibly have an objection to that based on your logic, can you?

If that means Bush wins, (Well Shouldn’t he?)

23

From what I have seen, this is not a constitutional certainty. The constitution does not specifically require 270 electoral votes. It requires a majority of the electors. If Florida does not count, then 257 electoral votes would be a majority.

The question is on whether or not they can vote without florida, or whether both delegations (Republican and Democrats) show up to vote.

I think I read somewhere that this happened before, and The House got to decide which ones mattered. (I am not positive abotu that last part)
IOW…No way the Republicans are just going to give up Florida.

24

TampaFlyer said:

That they have poor eyesight? That they are old and reluctant to ask for advice or bother the election judge? Why don’t you explain just what it does say.

And you also might want to take into account the fact that nobody actually knows they were “Gore voters” since the whole point of this is that the votes weren’t counted. For all we know, it was 19,000 Bush votes.

25

Just to throw some grease on the fire, as I have already in 2 other threads…

There are actually over 29,000 ballots that were not counted in the election according to the Palm Beach County electorate web site.

Approximately 16% more ballots were presented in 2000 than votes were counted in 1996, 65,062 more ballots

Of those 65,062; 42,084 went to the Democratic and Libertarian Parties above last years count. over 18% increase.

The Republican and Reform Parties combined actually LOST 8,248 votes or 5.01%; The Republican Party alone only gained 14.27% over last year, excluding the Reform Party slide over.

Palm Beach County electorate is run by a Democrat and counted likewise.

Someone was cheating perhaps, but it isn’t who you think.

And though a revote would decidedly push GW Bush to a victory IMHO, it is still the WRONG THING TO DO.

They had their shot at voting. Some may have screwed up. The time to cry foul on the ballot form was months ago, not after loosing the election.

John Currado, my newest hero said something to the extent of if Al Gore decides to litigate, Bush should concede Florida, taking the high ground to save the Democratic process. I hate to agree with that, but this Presidency is already clouded. Al Gore’s “You ain’t seen nothing yet” would turn into four years later saying the same thing with nothing being what we will all see. It could push a solid Republican candidate into a lengthy rule, eight years plus.

But more than that, it will save our election system from being won and lost by attorneys instead of voters. I just hope that Al Gore will have a higher moral ground than his campaign manager and put the Country above himself. (speaking of me me me from another post…)

26

I am afraid that if we abdicate this election to Gore, we may already have killed the democratic process. We may never have another honest election again.

(ok, maaaaaaybe there is a little hyperbole in there)

27

Hyperbole? Coming from the man who predicted that Bush would win in a landslide?

Nah.

:wink:

28

saltire: if they threw out FLA, then it would go to the person with the majority of the votes available- ie Gore (at this time).

Next- FLA Law, plus that Fla Supreme Court dec that esq quotes about, allows for a ballot to be thrown out if “reasonable doubt exists whether the election expressed the will of the voters”. Even the GOP admits that if folks voted as they really intended to, that enough votes would go to Gore to win FLA. No one doubts THAT. (It might not be the whole 18000, plus the 1500 extra Buch votes- but certainly, a very large % would be votes for Gore- and he only needs 200 or so). Now, does a 'reasonable doubt" exist? That is a legal term- which will have to be decided in court. I think it does, but I am biased. But, “throwing out the election” is LEGAL, and casting doubt on its validity is not some “trick”- but perfectly within the law. In fact, it seems, that it would be REQUIRED to contest the election in Court- that it is not an 'option", and “Gore should be a good sport”- it appears that he has a DUTY to challenge it.

As to the other states- yes, they should have a recount also- except California. NM & oregon are very close- not anywhere near as close as FLA, in terms of % or raw numbers, but still close. I doubt if a recount will change anything- but it will settle the question. As to allegations of fraud in CA- maybe so. But- CA was won by such a large amount, that there would have to be massive fraud, involving hundreds of thousands to change to election. So CA is besides the point. I am sure that there are other areas with irregularities- but, unless these irregularities could change the result- they don’t matter in this election. And, I have heard of none that could possibly matter. the problem with the irregularities in FLA is that they DO matter. They really are no worse than has occured in the past- but then it did not matter.

29

327 votes in Florida doesn’t count as a landslide?

Daniel, from what you say, ballots can legally be thrown out. I don’t see any provisions to allow for a candidate to recieve additional votes. The double punched ballots are already thrown out, and throwing out Buchanan votes wouldn’t change anything. Are you suggesting that Bush votes might be thrown out.

30

No, Water, i am afraid they would have to throw out the results in their entireity- thus either Fla would get no Electoral votes, or there would be a revote in that County.

It is possible, that a Court appointed commission could decide the EC votes for FLa, also. They could even be split- 50-50.

But, in any normal situation I can think of- this would result in Gore winning.

31

David B wrote:

They chose to not ask for advice. They chose to “not bother” anyone. I have heard on the news that some of them felt “embarrassed” and didn’t want to admit they’d made a mistake, so didn’t do anything. That was also a choice they made at the time.
Hey - they are grown-ups as well. They need to live with their choices, just like everyone else.

32

Could you try restating this, perhaps with a link to the site in question. As it stands, I cannot discern enough of your argument to know whether it should be given credence.

33

Thanks, you are obviously growing wise in your old age. :wink:

An infinite number, obviously, but only one in this Universe. Though if he goes through a wormhole ha can cast it recursively.

34

Um guys? Why is everyone forgetting the ABSENTEE ballots?
And I don’t think it’s right to just say, Oh, they’re probably for Bush.

It isn’t over YET.

35

What can I say? I was tired of getting ignored around here:)

36

yosemitebabe said:

Yes, that is true. However, that wasn’t my point. I was responding to somebody who implied it was due to simple stupidity. Don’t try to make my statements imply anything more than they did.

My grandfather, who died in February, was a person who acted like I mentioned. Even when he was in dire pain from his still-undiscovered pancreatic cancer, he didn’t want to bother anybody about it. That’s how many people in his generation had been raised, and how they still acted. I can imagine that, had he lived to vote and accidentally punched two cards, he would not have gone to somebody for help. But this doesn’t make him stupid, contrary to TampaFlyer’s implications.

And that was my only point in that statement. So I’d appreciate you not trying to read more into it.

37

Food for Thought from the U.S. Constitution

Article XX Section 3.

…If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
Article II, Clause 4:

The Congress may determine the Time of choosing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

38

Electoral College May Not Need Florida Electors to Choose President.

If they throw out Florida’s 25 EC votes, that would still leave Gore with enough EC votes to win, right?

Wrong, ballot breath! New Mexico and Oregon are also in dispute and could both be given to Bush. If so, Bush would have 258 EC votes to Gore’s 255 and Bush would win. If Gore gets Oregon, but not New Mexico, Gore wins. If Gore gets New Mexico but not Oregon, Gore wins.

I’m not going to consider the possible influence of Wisconsin or Iowa right now; my brain’s turning into guacomole.

Why don’t we go back to a nice, reasonable creation vs. evolution debate for a change, hmmmmm?

39

Hmmmm I have had to post the following several times. One wonders how many people actually review history when they think about what the future will bring. :wink:
In 1876, the results of the selection of electors by popular vote (i.e., exactly what we all did Tuesday) in three states was disputed by the major parties. Florida (them again!), Louisiana and South Carolina all had contested election results (in addition to one contested elector from Oregon; I forget why only one elector was contested from that state). These disputes were not resolved by December 6 when the “Electoral College” (what a great name someone made up) ‘met’ to vote.

Now, they didn’t just ignore those states. Instead, each set of electors in each state met and voted, sealed their results and transmitted them to Congress, pursuant to the requirements of Art. II, Sec. 1 of the Constitution (as modified by Amendment XII). That is, for each state, Congress got 2 envelopes, one from the Dems, one from the GOP. Thus, it was up to Congress, which met the next year, to decide which envelope to open from each state.

Congress took their time doing this. Eventually, they appointed an Electoral Commission, which investigated the issue of alleged voting irregularities in each state. Predictably, the Commission voted 8-7 for the Republican electors in each case, along party lines. Thus, Hayes beat Tilden 185-184, and became forever known as Rutherfraud B. Hayes, President.

Thus, assuming Florida doesn’t manage to sort this all out by December 12, presumably each set of electors will vote and transmit their votes to Congress, which will then have the dubious task of deciding which envelope to open.

As for the Florida Supreme Court opinion, it should be noted that the election can’t be voided JUST for ‘frustrating the will of the people.’ There must be ‘substantial noncompliance’ with Florida election law. So far, no one has suggested credibly that this occurred. Whether or not Florida’s courts would eliminate this additional requisite is anyone’s guess. Most likely, the issue will have been made moot by the action of Congress.
Interesting date to keep in mind: March 4, 2001, the date by which the Congress must determine who won the electoral vote, or accept as president the Vice-President (Amendment XX).

40

Actually, the Electoral College does not meet until December 18.

**

I thought it was January 20, Inauguration Day.