What should be done with the disputed votes in Palm Beach?

Yet another thread on the election, this one about the question above.

Let me start with by stating that I have no axe to grind in this election. I am Canadian, and furthermore I personally reject the whole idea of representative ‘democracy’ as a travesty of true, Athenian-style democracy. In addition, I find neither of the two main candidates to be ‘worthy’ of the office of President of the USA. What I am interested in is finding out what exactly happened in Palm Beach, Florida.

The first question is: did a significant fraction of votors, intending to vote for Al Gore, instead mistakenly vote for Pat Buchannen? Clearly there were a very high number of Buchannen votes in that county. The argument has been made that even more people voted for him in 1996, and that, therefore, the 2000 vote was in line with expectations. This argument is clearly spurious. Buchannen got many more votes in 1996 Florida than 2000 Florida. As a percentage of total votes cast, 1996 Palm Beach was right in line with 1996 Florida, while 2000 Palm Beach had several times more Buchannen votes than projected from the rest of 2000 Florida. I urge you to visit this site for charts showing the effect that I am talking about.

So some Gore voters may have voted for Buchannen by mistake, and thereby given the Presidency to G. W. Bush. Should something be done to rectify this? After all, you have to be fairly stupid to vote for Buchannen, thinking that he was Gore, right? And if you’re that stupid, then tough luck, you should pay more attention next time, right? That seems to be a common reaction in these threads, but is it justified?

Remember that there is no IQ requirement to vote in the USA. If you are a citizen of the USA and are legally an adult, you can vote. (please correct me if there are other requirements - I am from Canada, after all) It is clear that almost everyone can successfully register their vote, even on the so-called ‘butterfly’ ballots. However, the lowest 1% or so of voters, ranked by intelligence, would only just be able to do this successfully, even with a crystal-clear ballot. If there were an additional impediment to the process, such as the (admittedly minor) effort to understand the ballots in question in Palm Beach, then those particular voters would be much more likely to make a mistake while voting. The impediment in question applied to the Gore voters, with their candidate #2 on the listing, but #3 among the punch-holes, but not the Bush voters, who had their candidate at the top of the listing, and at the top of the punch-holes.

So 100 % of the Bush supporters who vote in that county do in fact vote for Bush, while 99 % of the Gore supporters vote for Gore, and 1 % for Buchannen. That 1% decides the Presidency. I am guessing about the percentages. But the idea is the same, whatever the actual numbers are.

So what is to be done? Realistically, I see 4 options:

  1. Do nothing. Accept that Bush wins the Presidency because of a poorly-designed ballot in one Florida county. The Republicans are all for this option, of course. The main argument for this is that normally, once a vote is cast, it stands, whatever the intentions of the voter. It should not matter whether the election is for Mayor of East Bumblefuck, New Hampshire, or President of the USA. The main argument against it is that it goes directly contrary to the idea that every voter is equal: in this case, 100 Gore supporters are worth 99 Bush supporters, for the purposes of the voting results.

  2. Re-allocate the Buchannen votes to the candidates according to statistical analysis of the relative votes in other counties in Florida. The main argument for this is that we would end up with the closest approximation to the intended vote. The main argument against it is that we lose the connection between voter and vote, since nobody actually casts the votes in question.

  3. Have a re-vote among those citizens in Palm Beach who voted the first time. The main argument for this is that every voter would know that their vote has been cast for the person that they intended to vote for. The main argument against it is that people would certainly change their votes, in the knowledge that their personal votes have a huge influence on the election results. In particular, any Nader voters would have a strong incentive to switch to Gore.

  4. Re-do the entire national presidential election. The main arguments are the same as in option 3) above.

So what do you think? Please, I am interested in a reasoned, logical argument, not a rant.

Bill

  1. Do nothing.
  2. That day we did voting, not statistics. Extending your argument a little more: we could save a lot of money and extend ststistical data from four or forty years ago (are the data get more reliable with age?).
  3. it defeats the purpose of voting: now first time voters know the results.
    4)Of course! In exactly four years.

It’s nice to carry 49 states. Or, at least, 35. But I’d turned around and went home if I knew that half the people of the country do not want me. And lawyers ultimately got this! A Tennessee lawyer, rejected by voters, wants the court to award him the presidency. Even R. Nixon decided not to contest. But Algore does not care if it continues for months, his hurt ego is more important than the country. In a way, he is right: we had a lousy president for years, we can do without any while he drags it through courts. Now lawyers will decide the presidency.

Well, if your four options are the only ones, I whole-heartedly vote for #1. There are just so many cans of worms that would be opened with anything else. If people are so stupid that they can’t follow an arrow to the correct punch hole, and punch a SECOND hole (automatically voids their ballot), and THEN does not ask for another ballot because they screwed up, do we actually want these people deciding the future of our country?

Not to mention all the other problems it would cause. If they allow a re-vote in Palm Beach, what happens anywhere else there was an irregularity? The St. Louis polls staying open longer for example. Heck, some polling places in my area ran out of ballots. Irregularities happen every election. I would hazard a guess that most of the time the results stand as is. If Palm Beach County gets a second election, anyone can file for a re-vote if they wanted.

That’s the way it should be, accept the original election day vote. If you screwed up, tough, you will never do it again. There are just too many variables involved here. If you let PBC have something that wouldn’t happen otherwise (say if Gore won the electoral college 350-188), you shouldn’t let it happen now. People need to take more responsibility for their actions. Voting is a right, yes. But it is immensely important, and shouldn’t be taken lightly. If you need help with something, GET IT. Don’t rush and mess up because you are late for your favorite TV show.

Willie I have not responded to any threads pertaining to the Palm Beach/butterfly ballots. But here is my story:

I live in Akron, OH. We have used the butterfly ballots for 10-15 years now. I am 56 years old, an old style liberal who voted for Gore(I hope I did, but not sure now). I am college educated, knew EXACTLY what I was voting for concerning each candidate and issue. We had a lot of issues on our ballot.

I had no trouble punching the holes for all candidates. Never have had a problem in elections gone by.

But when I turned the page to vote for the first “local issue” on my ballot, I read it rather quickly(since I knew how I wanted to vote, and punched the wrong hole. And I realized it, paused, cursed my stupidity, knew that that particular issue stood no chance of passing, and went on to the next issue, but taking my own sweet time trying to figure out which hole was which on a ballot that criss-crossed from left to right, with holes in seeming illogical places.

Remember, I’m above average when it comes to figuring this out. And I f***** up. Had I mis-voted for the President, I would have gone for a new ballot. But, if I were 75, like my parents, I may not have been able to catch it.

To answer your OP, Gore will gracefully bow out when the vote is certified next week. But, the system is in need a a bad fix. Punchcard ballots are not very good. We only realized it now because of the close election. They have been discarded in other states, I think, because of just such problems.

Viscera, I totally agree. These aledged Algore voters play bingo all day long. Bingo cards are more complex, than the ballots. Yet they manage. The ballots were available before election. Nobody made noise then. I wonder, what if Algore won? And if his voters are so stupid, he deserves it.
There are more volunteers than voters at each polling place. They looked very bored to me. They would gladly answer any questions, if voters cared to ask. The idea of any elections is to have a “frozen” moment, at least day. We already have problems because of itching media and time zones.
As I said, it’s nice to carry a mandate. But if you are mediocre (not to say that GWB is Alexandr the Great), face it. We do not always win. You got to have dignity to loose too. It comes with the territory.

samclem wrote:

Indeed. I would say that given the importance of the electoral process, that in future elections every polling station be provided with ATM-style voting booths with touch screens containing large icons for each candidate in the election. I would additionally say that this machine could produce a physical record of some sort to be dropped into a ballot box and counted - I am uncomfortable with the idea of all-electronic voting.

peace wrote:

[quote}But I’d turned around and went home if I knew that half the people of the country do not want me. (snip) A Tennessee lawyer, rejected by voters, wants the court to award him the presidency. [/quote]

Both candidates were unwanted by half the voters (maybe half the people, maybe not) of the country.

What part of “…a reasoned, logical argument, not a rant.” did you not understand? Anytime I see somebody refered to with an insulting epithet, I ignore the rest of that person’s argument.

peace said

Trying to stay factual and remain in GQ–

Could you please supply a cite, other than local talk radio, that indicates these voters play bingo all day long? And, could you please cite a ref. for the fact that bingo cards are more complex than the ballot in question. You, for sure, didn’t vote using that card, and, I doubt that you play bingo. Do you have any other helpful information to add to this factual thread? Waiting…

  1. Allocate 1/2 a vote to each presidential candidate whose box was ticked on the double voted ballots. It’s pretty clear that those voters who were confused by the illegal ballot intended to vote for at least one of the candidates they punched a hole for, and not the other guys. No need to have a new election, and the will of the people is carried out…

Sorry, Sam. Just checked a few sources: they esign rockets all day long, no bingo playing.How does it change the election outcome? Or the fact that I am stupid irresponsible straw man? And you are damn right about bingo cards: they are very plain.

HELPFUL INFO
The election rules are not perfect, but any accusations should have been brought before the election, not after. And what if Algore won? Answer this and supply a cite. TIA.

Are you one of these feebleminded voters? You can use Windows9x, but couldn’t figure arrows on the ballot? And you never ask any questions?

On the second thoight, maybe ballots should be made complex. So, all idiots are automatically screened. Then we’d have better presidents.

Waiting…

Squink, what you propose is totally unacceptable as it changes the rules after the election. Then other counties and states could want to do the same.

The time to propose changes is before the election. Once you go to the election with a set of rules everybody has accepted you cannot change them because you don’t like the outcome.

The “will of the people” argument is also silly. The will of the people is not absolute an is subject to the rule of the laws of the land. Or why can’t the people vote for Clinton again?

Although I am normally a fan of the most tasteless humor to be found on the internet, there’s something about the rampant abuse the Inadvertent-Buchanan-Voters are getting that rubs me the wrong way. I’m all for the outright net.hammering of morons, and I’ll laugh right along with everybody else when the new Darwin Awards come out, but calling out the residents of Palm Beach who didn’t place their vote correctly isn’t cutting it.

There shouldn’t be ANY of that kind of confusion when you’re going to the polls. Noticing the ballot at an election is like noticing an umpire in the World Series. If either happens, the event has become a sham. Christ, put up a few differential equations or request star charting on it as well. Skunk the stupid bastards who went there under the impression that the thinking they had to do would solely be that of remembering the best man or woman for the job. There should also be a little guy that comes scuttling about from the shadows every time the ballot confounded a resident causing a mis-vote, that taunts, jeers and performs unflattering impersonations of the aforementioned jackass citizen.

Playing the Sweeping Generalization Game ©, I have a real hard time with elderly men and women who have, on the average, done more to keep the sanctity of this country and its elections intact than a yippy little kid like myself ever will, getting abuse for failing to solve the puzzle of a ballot that would be more at home in the next sequel to <B>Zork</B> than it would at a polling place.
Having said that, I would be in favor of option three in the OP (an illegal ballot got through – yay. That’s not the fault of the citizens and there shouldn’t be even a chance they suffer because the ballot designers and its approvers couldn’t do their freaking jobs right) but since there’s no precedent of that (at least, none that I know of), it looks like option one (do nothing) will go down.

Moving to Great Debates. DavidB and Gaudere, if you wind up having to move it the Pit, I’m profoundly sorry.

If there is no way to accurately determine the will of the Florida (or any other state’s) electorate, don’t allow Florida to appoint electors.

From Article II Section I of the US Constitution

That would get rid of the 270 electoral vote requirement and allow a candidate to be chosen. I’m not sure how Florida voters and republicans will feel about this though.

Oh…I’m pretty sure we all know how Republicans feel about this one:)

I think there are only 2 ‘fair’ choices

  1. abide by the law, Bush wins this one - make changes in the future
  2. have a second national election - personally don’t like this one but it would be unfair to just have second elections for just certain areas where one canidate doesn’t like the results

The election result is not final. Until the results are certified in Florida, your declaration of victory is premature.

Sam, it took me 68 minutes to answer, when you said: “waiting…” Are you away from your computer or, like Algore, you change the rules if you do not like the results: others answer right away, you do not. Or you just have nothing to say? It’s OK, too. I understand.

Folks, do not blame it on the old Palm Beach kakers: Algore started it. He is a lawyer: it’s natural for him to go to court. Then the decision can be appealed…it may take years… Good…his lawyers are making hay.

With the margin of victory in the range of statistical noise and the dispute over the thrown-out votes, I think it’s only fair to call the election a tie. A run-off election would result in a lot of the same problems, and perhaps another statistical tie. Therefore, I would simply split Florida’s electors between the two candidates.

As it is, this would give the election to Gore, and I won’t pretend that I wouldn’t be happy about that. Even so, I think it would be the most fair solution either way.

Dr. J

peace why the bug up your ass?

I went to bed shortly after my post last night. I arose at 6 this morning(Sat.), and fixed breakfast for my kids and went to work, where I was until 5:00 this afternoon. Then I went directly to a family birthday party, and just got back about a half-hour ago. Took time to take a dump while the computer was loading, and here I am. Rushed to read your post first. Couldn’t wait.

When I first replied to this thread,it was in GQ. I posted what I considered to be helpful information about my experience using a butterfly ballot.

But your first post was opinionated against Gore,Clinton, and the Democrats.

What? You think Bush should give up because less than half the voters want him???I’m confused.

[/quote]
A Tennessee lawyer, rejected by voters, wants the court to award him the presidency
[/quote]

How was Gore rejected by voters if more voted for him than voted for Bush?

[/quote]
Even R. Nixon decided not to contest
[/quote]
Right:D After exploring all the possible ways he could, he made a decision that it wouldn’t work.

Sheesh! That was a GQ post?
From you later post

I don’t believe you to be a straw man.

No, I though I provided enuf info for you to consider me a bit above feebleminded. And I didn’t need to ask questions. I told you that I realized my mistake after the fact, but while I was still in the booth, but it was on an issue that was not critical to me.

I’ve recently thought that that would be a good rule on this board. Maybe a more complex posting system would screen out some of the idiots.

No longer waiting.

The bug is still there. We call it “shpilkies” in my neck of the woods.
Your second paragraph: explanation accepted. Lazy me was sitting here all day long, decided to pick up a fight.
**But your first post was opinionated against Gore,Clinton, and the Democrats. ** I ain’ W. Cronkite, I may have an opinion.
**What? You think Bush should give up because less than half the voters want him???I’m confused. ** I’m confused, too. I think there should be direct, popular vote. But this is the rule. Rules should not change after the game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------we had a lousy president for years

Sheesh! That was a GQ post?
Whatever. Still true.

Are you one of these feebleminded voters? You can use Windows9x, but couldn’t figure arrows on the ballot? And you never ask any questions?

No, I though I provided enuf info for you to consider me a bit above feebleminded. And I didn’t need to ask questions. I told you that I realized my mistake after the fact, but while I was still in the booth, but it was on an issue that was not critical to me.

Yes, you probably were tired yesterday, as I am now. Where I live, I received a reminder to vote, etc. and the sample ballot ~3 mos ago. And again, in any event, make noise BEFORE the game, never AFTER. If nothing else, it makes bad impression R. Nixon got it. Algore’s political song is over.
quote:

On the second thoight, maybe ballots should be made complex. So, all idiots are automatically screened. Then we’d have better presidents.

I’ve recently thought that that would be a good rule on this board. Maybe a more complex posting system would screen out some of the idiots.

No, the idiots are a side effect of democracy, here and in Florida. Nothing will discourage us.