No, to experience working and living alone before returning to school, so they can gain that “real world” outlook you praised in another thread. Also, so they can pursue their interests outside an academic context and figure out what they want to major in, instead of spending the first year or so as an “undecided” student, which really just wastes time and money if they switch majors later.
Hell no. I’m tired of us 20 something whippersnapper =being the ones who are being talked about in these draft threads. if they do make a draft bill it should draft everyone who is qualified to vote, not just the young.
Yes it is. Are these persons laboring for the government free to stop their work? Did they have any choice in beginning their work or not? If they refuse to work, will they be imprisoned or otherwise punished? If the answer is yes, then they are slaves. Dressing it up with pretty terms like “service to society” or “civic duty” doesn’t change that fact.
What would we do with everybody who refused to serve? Prosecute them and send them to federal prison? Our jails are overcrowded enough. Deny objecting college students financial aid? Feasible, but you’d need state governments to cooperate (or be extored like with the drinking age) and that still wouldn’t effect students who could can find non-gov ways finance their education. Even if colleges were banned from enrolling objectors (threaten them with loss of funding or power to award degrees), what’s to stop students from going abroad (Canada) to study? The State Dept. would need to revoke passports from all 17-20 yr olds or institute an exit visa system.
I don’t believe it will ever happen, but the idea of making all community college students do 16 hours of community service was brought up not long ago in California:
http://cpr.ca.gov/updates/pressdetail.php?id=67
I gave the article to my students, and the majority of them wrote in their responses that they wouldn’t mind such a program if it were strictly voluntary, but they didn’t like the idea of being forced to do it. One of my older students remarked, “I don’t have 16 hours to spare. I don’t even have two hours to spare. I have six kids.”
At any rate, I’m with DESK.
$100.00 a month! I earned more than that a week working part time in a supermarket in high school. And I assume you’re proposing these service jobs be fulltime? And people would be punished for refusing them? That’s slavery! And what about people who can’t really on their families? Someone is forced to leave home at 18 (parents kick 'em out or sitution’s to bad to stay) an instead on finding a job to support themself (and if they’re luck go to school partime) their forced into state labour?
P.S. Before anyone trys to use jury duty to justify “national service” I’d just like to like to say that’s like comparing apples and pork. With jury duty almost everyone of voting age (save the elderly) has an equal chance of being selected to sit in courtroom for a few days (weeks for major cases, but that’s rare), possible have to stay in a cheap hotel with no TV, then go back to your normal routine. It’s easy to get out of and once you serve you probally won’t be selected again for a long time. That’s a big difference from making all young people spend two years working for the state at a low pay, with the threat of jail haning over their heads.
Nitpick: The length varies by what you choose. If you choose to be a traffic cop, it’s something like 3 years; a freind of mine picked the combat police because it was only about one year (but came with the guarantee that you’d be breaking up the annual college-student riots – with luck you’ll be able to recognize your classmates through your plexiglass sheild!).
Yet, somehow, the Draft avoids these problems and is not slavery? Or do you classify the draft as slavery too?
Interesting question. I’ll find out what the punishment is over here. But I think it’s more like a sense of duty and national pride that “peer pressures” people into doing it. Not fullfilling your duty would be dishonorable I assume. I’ll see what happens to those who refuse.
Not that I’m saying the US should do this (remember, I’m just being hypothetical here. I like the US the way it is), but I’d say the government could not allow that person to work legally or collect social security or anything. So if a person turned 30, and they hadn’t yet done their service, they would have to sign-in or be ineligible for lawful employment. His current employer would have to fire him or pay hefty fines. Like hiring an illegal immigrant. This would all be civil penalties. No jail time or anything like that.
Yes, full time.
What about draftees? Do you consider that slavery as well?
Actually, dont you think this would be the PERFECT oppurtunity for a person who was kicked out of his house by his parents? He would now have a place to live, three hot/healthy meals a day, and would be learning a trade/skill. What’s not to like? He wouldn’t need to spend his 100 dollars a month on anything. He could save it. Then, when he gets out he’d have two grand waiting for him.
I’d just like to reiterate that I’m here to try to help explain “how” it could work. I don’t propose that we do this in the US. Only that “if” we did, it could be feasible.
And I’m not yet convinced it is “slavery”.
I agree with Bear that it isn’t slavery. It’s indentured servitude but it isn’t slavery.
Marc
Um, where would he be living exactly? Does the state have dorms for homeless civic workers? Does it feed them? What happens if the person hates the dorms and wants to move somewhere else? How is it right to restrict their desire to live somewhere they want through economic (paying them so paltry a wage they cannot afford a rent) means?
I don’t know how it is over there, but $2000 is not that much savings-wise over here, especially if that’s all you have to show for over a year of work. Even at minimum wage you could expect to save at least $100 a month, and you’d have a much better quality of life with the money you’re not saving.
[quote=continuity eror]
Um, where would he be living exactly? Does the state have dorms for homeless civic workers? Does it feed them?
[quote]
Not a dorm… more like a barracks. And not for just the homelss ones. For all of them.
It’s not an option. They would not be able to live where they want. They’d have a place to live, and maybe even a curfew. It’s not going to be the absolute best time for them, no.
It would work like this:
A person signs up for his “required non-military civil job service”. He goes to see a recruitor and says that he’d like to do his service. He goes through a whole paperwork process that includes some questionaires and aptitude tests. Then he is told what job he will be doing. They send him to sory of a Basic Training for a couple weeks. This is where everyone gets their government uniforms and learns all about conduct and curtousies and such. They also learn some key leadership and teamwork skills. After that, they’d go off to learn their specific job. A governement clerk would go to that school. A firemen would go to that school. A metermaid or resource deputy would go to that school. Mechanics would go to mechanic school, etc!
After a month or so of advanced and specialized training, they would be put to work in their field. They would serve out the rest of their required service to their country.
During the service, they would work full time. Sometimes on weekends. The pay is only nominal. Everything they need for the two years will be provided. Things they might want, aren’t necessarily what they need.
In Korea, they’re not allowed to have cell phones or computers or a whole list of things. Plus there are strict curfews and a load of other restrictions. In this new system we’re creating in this thread, we would have to decide how strict or how leniant the rules would be.
But people would not be able to just go live whereever they want. They live where they’re told to live, based on the needs of the country. Many times they wont be in their hometown or home state even. It’s sort of military in nature, but for the point of the OP, military would not be a job description. The only jobs they’d fill would be non-military government jobs.
And as far as money goes… I know that I sure didnt save 2000 between 18 and 20. Course I was paying for an apartment, school, a car and a whole buttload of other things. But I didn’t have 2 grand saved up after two years of real working. People doing their required service wouldn’t be paying for things like cars or apartments or food or partying of anything like that.
Not a dorm… more like a barracks. And not for just the homelss ones. For all of them.
It’s not an option. They would not be able to live where they want. They’d have a place to live, and maybe even a curfew. It’s not going to be the absolute best time for them, no.
It would work like this:
A person signs up for his “required non-military civil job service”. He goes to see a recruitor and says that he’d like to do his service. He goes through a whole paperwork process that includes some questionaires and aptitude tests. Then he is told what job he will be doing. They send him to sory of a Basic Training for a couple weeks. This is where everyone gets their government uniforms and learns all about conduct and curtousies and such. They also learn some key leadership and teamwork skills. After that, they’d go off to learn their specific job. A governement clerk would go to that school. A firemen would go to that school. A metermaid or resource deputy would go to that school. Mechanics would go to mechanic school, etc!
After a month or so of advanced and specialized training, they would be put to work in their field. They would serve out the rest of their required service to their country.
During the service, they would work full time. Sometimes on weekends. The pay is only nominal. Everything they need for the two years will be provided. Things they might want, aren’t necessarily what they need.
In Korea, they’re not allowed to have cell phones or computers or a whole list of things. Plus there are strict curfews and a load of other restrictions. In this new system we’re creating in this thread, we would have to decide how strict or how leniant the rules would be.
But people would not be able to just go live whereever they want. They live where they’re told to live, based on the needs of the country. Many times they wont be in their hometown or home state even. It’s sort of military in nature, but for the point of the OP, military would not be a job description. The only jobs they’d fill would be non-military government jobs.
And as far as money goes… I know that I sure didnt save 2000 between 18 and 20. Course I was paying for an apartment, school, a car and a whole buttload of other things. But I didn’t have 2 grand saved up after two years of real working. People doing their required service wouldn’t be paying for things like cars or apartments or food or partying of anything like that.
Ah, I see. It becomes clear, now that I note that you compared it to what they have in “Korea”, but didn’t specify which half.
Man, that was good.
Marc
Problem is that there are not to many options for students who are not at least pursuing a degree. Most likely they won’t be able to find jobs where they can afford to live on their own and would have to stay at home anyway. They won’t be exposed to any new surroundings like they would if they went to college, the peace corp or the military. I can see a year off before college easily turning into a year of sitting around their home town playing grab-ass.
Yeah you know what? We don’t seem to be wanting for clerks, firemen, metermaids or auto-machanics in this country. Do you percieve a shortage that we need to start drafting them?
What exactly is the point of this indentured servitude anyway? What social problems do you think that this system will address? As already pointed out, if this work was so worthwhile, there would be someone willing to pay to have it done. Is this more “people learn fundamental life building skills and values by being forced to do crappy work they don’t want to do” bullshit or “everyone should share in experience societies crappiest jobs” bullshit?
I also wanted to just throw in there that one of our fundamental rights is the right to pursue whatever job we want to do for a living.
Yes, I do.
North Korea is way worse, men have to serve 10 years and women have to serve 7 years in the military.
The South Korean situation is different, just like the Israeli situation and to a degree the Switzerland situation is different since all these countries practice conscription. These are small countries on a defensive footing sitting next door to aggressive enemies (well not Switzerland).
If the US were a tiny country sitting next door to an oppressive country that wanted to and has declared war on us I’d have a different view on conscription. But we aren’t.
This idea if supposed to foster volunteerism and cooperation and service and all that good stuff, yes? But all the information I’ve seen indicates that the young generation of today (hs/college) is volunteering at higher rates than ever before. So why force them to do it, when large numbers are already offering service because they actually want to?
Anyway, I think it’s a rotten idea for most of the reasons already stated.
Most people in the United States have already spent at least 13 years in government run educational institutions by the time they’re 18. What do you expect to achieve in two years what couldn’t be done in 13?
Marc