Every time I see that flag I imagine the lions are listening to Thriller.
I would have recognized it as being Welsh if I had seen it, but only because it’s very similar to the arms of Llywelyn the Great that are used by the Prince of Wales. Had I not stopped to look at it, I would have assumed it was the same thing, and at most I’d have guessed that it was similar to the situation in Scotland where the royal banner has turned into a generic patriotic thing.
I know a fair amount of medieval Welsh history and have an assorted few books on the subject( though to be honest mostly more focused on English marchers than native Welsh polities ). So I am well acquainted with Owain Glyndwr and his history.
But I know very little about modern Welsh nationalism, other than it a.)exists and b.)it isn’t particularly prominent from a separatist pov.
Wales is the same size as Slovenia, with a bigger population. It has a much bigger population than Iceland. Both Slovenia and Iceland function successfully as independent entities.
Wales also has a larger GDP than Slovenia or Iceland or, indeed, several other European countries.
Having said that, Wales is obviously going to be in the shadow of a single much larger neighbour, economically, socially and culturally, in a way that Iceland and Slovenia are not. But I don’t see that as a fundamental obstacle to Welsh independence.
Full disclosure. My wife is Welsh and I live on the border (I was in Cardiff yesterday).
Wales has a sharp ‘north/south’ divide. Northerners/Westerners speak more Welsh as a first language, are generally more nationalistic, live in rural communities. Southern Welsh (like my wife) tend to speak English as a first language, live in more industrial communities, and look down on northerners as country bumpkins (actually she calls them ‘gogs’ - which is to do with their accents).
Welsh people are fiercely patriotic, proud of their language, singing and devotion to rugby, but they tend to have less desire for independance than Scots or certain portions of Northern Ireland. There’s a recognition, certainly amongst southern Welsh, that their economic health rests with strong relationships with England.
There was a surge of Welsh nationalism in the 70s/80s which mostly manifested in torching of holiday homes owned by English people. But these days, not so much. It has never been anything CLOSE to Sinn Fein/IRA.
Big fat no to this one.
I was in Wales for a week and a half last year and saw the flag of Owain Glyndwr a couple of times, but didn’t know what it was. I thought it was a Welsh royal standard, although now I see that’s somewhat different.
I think Welsh nationalism and Welsh independence are two different things, and are viewed very differently. Welsh nationalism seems to be mainly cultural. Things I identify with Welsh national identity include the Welsh language, singing, rugby, sheep, mining, and a few food specialties. Other than occasional snide comments from Jeremy Clarkson and that type, I think all of these cultural identity aspects are viewed favourably. Independence is the political side and has two aspects: devolution and full independence. My general impression is that most English people are generally neutral or slightly in favour of devolution. Economically, Wales is behind most of the rest of Britain, and a one-size-fits-all approach from London doesn’t suit Wales. Some people complain that Welsh residents receive benefits that English residents don’t, and that that is unfair to the poorer English regions. However, those complaints are seldom in the news, and funding aside, no one seems bothered about the Welsh National Assembly. Full independence I mainly associate with the Plaid Cymru political party. They’ve got a few members in the UK Parliament, and several in the Welsh National Assembly, but they’re a minor group. I think most English people are aware of them, but don’t really pay them much attention. I’d guess they’re slightly more newsworthy in Scotland and Northern Ireland, but that’s just a guess.
My knowledge of Owain Glyndwr begins and ends with Horrible Histories’ Tom Jones parody song about him. That said, it’s pretty informative despite all the Tom Jones jokes.
I’m familiar with him as “Owain ap Gruffydd”, but I wouldn’t have recognized this version of the name before I Googled it.
The only Welsh flag I know is the red dragon on green and white.
Having a larger GDP than Iceland, a country with about one ninth the population, isn’t much of an accomplishment.
I may be wrong about this, but my impression is that Plaid Cymru (=“The Party of Wales” note, not “The Welsh National Party”, which may be a clue) has historically been more about preservation and promotion of the language and culture rather than aiming directly for full political/constitutional independence. Which is one of the reasons why devolution to the Assembly covers a less extensive range of responsibilities than is the case for Scotland and Northern Ireland.
(I should say I’m English, but guiltily aware that I know more of continental European languages and cultures than I do of my own country’s other constituents).
Thanks, everyone. Your comments and insights have been helpful.
Sounds like if I walk around town with a Cofiwch Dryweryn coffee mug or an Owen Glyndwr flag no one is likely to say boo.
Honestly, I’d never even heard of the Owain Glyndwr flag before reading this thread, and never seen it until Aspidistra posted a link. I’ve only ever seen the red dragon on a green and white field Welsh flag. And I’m a nerd about those sorts of things.
That’s true. I’ll change it to, it would be difficult for it to function as an independent country. Unlike Iceland, Wales has been tied to another, bigger country that’s right next door, for hundreds of years. The Slovenia situation is closer, so I’ll give you that.
I’ll celebrate Wales winning in football but never Scotland.
Yes indeed.
From Evelyn Waugh’s Decline and Fall:
It’s supposed to be funny. And it is, very, on the whole. But this description of the Welsh is a bit over the top.
Every time I see that flag, I imagine Welsh Royalty dancing under strobe lights to trance music in Ibiza.
It is worth noting here that people who live in the UK have an easy and full understanding of the conceptual difference between a country and a nation-state that people elsewhere often don’t have because they have no familiarity with such a thing. Someone living in the UK fully understands that Scotland, for instance, is a country, but that it exists in a larger state, because people who live in the UK are used to that concept. It’s part of their civics education. It’s what they live.
My fellow Canadians generally do not entirely comprehend that. It’s very weird to us, as evidenced by the passionate ongoing debates over Quebec’s being a nation or not or whatever. To people here, or in the USA or Australia or Japan or lots of places, the world is divided into nation-states. That’s why it’s so often the case that we fuck up the distinction between the UK and England.
Wales, consequently, to many and likely most people, just isn’t a place that really even exists as a country.
This is the first I’ve heard of any significant Welsh nationalist movement. Scotland and Ireland I’m well aware of, especially since Brexit is likely to make both of those movements considerably more heated, and I don’t think that’s just because of my ancestry (I have significant Irish ancestry that I identify with, but no Scottish that I know of). But so far as I knew, the vast majority of Welsh were perfectly fine with being united with England.
For flags, I know that Wales has a cross flag that’s one of the three crosses in the Union Jack, but I couldn’t tell you which one. And I also know that there’s a dragon rampant associated with Wales, but now that I think of it, I couldn’t tell you if it’s the green or red one. I have no idea who Owain Glyndwr was, nor which of those two symbols was his. If I saw either of those flags flying outside of a Welsh home, I would assume that it was meant as a symbol of cultural heritage, not of nationalism (and yes, those are two very distinct things). Likewise the Welsh language: One can be proud of one’s people’s poetry and literature, without believing that they should be an independent nation.
>> How are the flag of Owain Glyndwr and Welsh nationalism viewed outside Wales?
My guess is probably on a computer. Certainly, that’s how I would view them. These sorts of things don’t get a lot of media attention in the USA. (We’re currently in a bit of a nationalist moment. Sorry about that.)