How big a problem, really, is lack of ID?

Factual Questions
1

There has been a lot of debate surrounding the voter ID laws in the United States. The general idea is that requiring ID to vote favors the Republicans because poor people and/or minorities, who are supposed to be more likely to vote Democrat, are less likely to have proper ID. Of course, suspicion falls on some minorities as to their eligibility to vote in the first place and so requiring people to show ID does seem to have some merit in reducing the number of ineligible votes cast?

To what extent is this really a problem in our society? Are there large numbers of people who are literally unable to get ID at any reasonable price even though they are legal residents or citizens? For example, are there hillbillies who come into town to get ID and are denied a driver’s license, non driver state id, passport, voter card, student id, and any other form of ID because they were born up in thar mountains and mom couldn’t read or write and never filed a birth certificate, making clerks turn them away every time and requiring documents or affidavits that cannot be obtained or that never existed, or is the problem more related to motivation, money, culture, or other non-critical reasons? E.g. applicant comes from a culture where ID’s are considered Satanic, applicant would rather spend money on cigarettes and beer than on a state ID or passport, or the applicant can’t read and write English well enough to fill out the application form.

E.g.

Applicant: “I would like a state ID please. I’m John Robert Smith.”
Clerk: “Let me see your birth certificate please.”
Applicant: “I don’t have one. I was born up in a remote Tennessee mountain village in 1923 and we never had them.”
Clerk: “I will need an affidavit from one of your parents certifying that you are their son.”
Applicant: “I’m 89 years old! My ma and pa kicked the bucket in 1985 and are buried out behind Bill’s barn.”
Clerk: “Well, ya done gots yerself a catch-22! No ID for you! Next!”

How often does this actually happen?

How about other countries? Are there large numbers of Swiss people who live on the edge of society because even though their circumstances of birth make them citizens, they cannot get the right paperwork and thus must beg on the street and live in the woods because nobody will hire them with no papers and they cannot emigrate without papers?

The purpose of this question is to inquire into the realities of getting ID. It is not intended to be a thread to debate the merits of voter ID laws.

2

Of course they CAN get them. But many senior citizens have lived for decades without needing one. Now suddenly, out of no-where, they are going to have to dig thru old records, and pay fees etc, in order to get a ID.

And, there’s no reason for them to need to get the ID.

Let me make one thing 100% clear- there is NO problem in the USA with non-citizens trying to vote. This has only surfaced as the GOP is trying to bring back “Jim crow” laws, to disenfranchise the poor.

Also when you’re living on Social Security the fees to recover your Birth Cert, plus fees to get a new ID are not insignificant.

3

For the poorest of voters, it can be a huge issue.

Some of the problems with getting a voter ID card in Texas have been studied in quite some detail (link).

Among the issues in Texas:

  1. The ID itself may be free, but support documentation for the application have associated fees.
  2. In far flung (mostly Western) parts of Texas, you may be facing a drive of more than 100 miles to the nearest DPS office, which means a round trip of 200-250 miles.
  3. Even in urban areas like Houston, unless you have a car, getting to the nearest DPS office can mean a one-way bus trip of more than 2 hours plus at least that much of a wait at the DPS office itself.

There are several millions of Texas voters who don’t currently have a photo ID (as estimated by the state), and they are predominantly poor and minority, who would have the least ability to afford to get one. That was the big reason the Texas version of the law was struck down. It disproportionately affected poor/minority voters. These are the voters who are least likely to have a car, most likely to need to work every day to make ends meet (usually without any paid time off), and most likely to require extra time at DPS offices or elsewhere to make sure their paperwork was in order.

4

That’s an excellent question, to what extent are ineligible voters a problem in our society?

You didn’t ask that question? You’re in good company, neither did anyone who proposed a Voter ID law.

There are citizens of this country who are legally entitled to vote who do not have valid State ID. This is an undeniable fact. These citizens will need to get ID, often at significant difficulty, whether it’s due to cost, lack of appropriate paperwork, lack of resources to travel to the required location.

This is all required to “protect” us from ineligible voters that are merely theorized to exist.

5

Doesn’t seem like a big problem in the US. But, in regards to voting, there is voter registration and some varying degree of control. So, I don’t think presenting ID to vote is a big deal. But, it doesn’t seem like a big obstacle either. Each side just keeps playing political football with a fairly innocuous issue seems to me.

MODERATOR?! Non-factual infammatory response.

6

You’re right. For the majority of US citizens it’s not difficult to obtain ID.

What’s your point?

7

Senior citizens is a red herring. They already had to provide proof of identity to qualify for social security. My father had to use data from the 1920 census to prove his age when applied for social security. Most people produce a birth certificate when they apply for social security.

8

Sure. Have they kept that proof and can they remember where it is after 10-20 years? Hell, I can’t always remember where I put shit, and I am only a “Senior citizen” according to AARP and a couple of retailers.

9

The OP also asked about other countries. Here are the ID rules for federal elections in Canada (I’m guessing it is the same provincially and municipally; if not the rules are at least similar). I guess you could have a few indigent people fall through the cracks, but Option 2 does seem to cover a lot of forms of identification.

10

Right:
Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water)
Bank/Credit Card Statement
Vehicle Ownership/Insurance
Correspondence issued by a school, college or university
Statement of Government Benefits (employment insurance, old age security, social assistance, disability support or child tax benefit)
Attestation of Residence issued by the responsible authority of a First Nations band or reserve
Government Cheque or Cheque Stub
Pension Plan Statement of Benefits, Contributions or Participation
Residential Lease/Mortgage Statement
Income/Property Tax Assessment Notice
Insurance Policy
Letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
One of the following, issued by the responsible authority of a shelter, soup kitchen, student/senior residence, or long-term care facility: Attestation of Residence, Letter of Stay, Admission Form or Statement of Benefits

11

Like I said, that covers a lot of possibilities. You could still have an indigent that can’t come up with two items on that list (particularly if they hate shelters). Pretty d–n unlikely, but possible.

12

It’s been a while since I registered to vote but don’t you need to show some ID at that time? Does the question of ID come up at registration time or is it when a person actually goes to the polls? In Viriginia, I always show an ID at the polls to prove I’m the guy I say I am then they have me on a list and they check me off and hand me a pass.

13

How relevant is ID anywhere else but voting? Also, only since 9/11 have various authorities been anal about ID for situations like getting new drivers licenses. If a person does not drive (what class of people would that be?) they don’t have a license.

Birth certificate? Depends. There was a discussion a while ago that mentioned that any birth certificate from Puerto Rico from over a few years ago is not valid any more, and obtianing a new one reuires either a visit to the island or a lot of money and running around. Even a Hawaiian BC from about 1960 is just a typewritten piece of paper it seems. At the extreme, Jaycee Dugard had 2 children whose births were apparently not registered; I’m sure a lot of people in “hippie communes” or that sort of community were never properly registered.

Social Security number? I suspect there are plenty of those that were obtained, long ago, with minimal documentation and are of questionable reliability.

Keep in mind that finding the paperwork, especially if you are thousands of miles from your original source and are not a tech-savvy type who can find this stuff on the internet, is difficult. Add in literacy problems, it’s more difficult. Add in a requirement to shell out significant dollars - say, $50 is a LOT of money for some classes of people - and you are seriously screwed.

Really, who is anyone? You are someone who claims to come from X, born Y, and have lived at Z for the last few years. All that society can do is give you your ID and watch for anyone claiming to be your evil twin.

With the recent crack-down on identity fraud, it seems the trick is to either be born recently, or have a paper trail from before the crack-down started.

How do you get a birth certificate for yourself if you have no ID?

For example, NY - you need a driver’s license, passport ($165), military ID, or “State issued non-driver photo-ID card” to get your birth certificate - and $30.

For “State issued non-driver photo-ID card”:
Read this - http://www.dmv.ny.gov/forms/id44.pdf and see if you can figure out how to prove you exist if your previous identity documents are gone and you are starting from scratch.

We seem to be going in circles…
I’m confused, how likely would someone with IQ90 or brain or literacy issues deal with this - assuming they could even get this stuff without serious help. Which brings up another issue, in these days of internet and automated phone system hell, who provides personalized help?

My conclusion - if you don’t have the paperwork already, good luck getting it.

14

Of Republicans and Race Cards: Why I Used to Believe That Voter ID Laws Really Were Just Common Sense

By Jeremiah Goulka

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/republicans-and-race-cards-why-i-used-believe-voter-id-laws-really-were-just-common-sense

15

Read the form - for a non-driver yada yada you need pretty much a birth certificate as proof of DoB. To get a birth certificate you need a non-driver PIDC. Catch-22.

16

In Germany, this would never be an issue since the civil registry keeps track of all vital events (at least in theory). Practically all births these days occur in a hospital or at least under the control of medical personnel who are obliged to report all births. There are also strong economic incentives to report every child birth (the government pays you extra for every child).

A couple of weeks before election day, the local city administration sends you a postcard informing you where to vote. Usually, it’s sufficient to present that postcard at the polling place. If you have lost that postcard or (in very rare cases) there are doubts about your identity, you might be asked to show photo ID.

Getting an ID is also not an issue because all the documentation needed is already kept by the civil registry and their offices should in most cases be easy to reach (I have to walk less than 10 minutes).

17

But how do you prove you are you without paperwork? How do they know they are not giving Dr. Sanjay Gupta’s ID to Osama Bin Laden just because he walked in the door and asked for it?

the only real positive ID’s are biometrics (i.e.fingerprints, photos) that are identifiable as you… provided they were also taken years ago…

18

You can apply for social security online and never show a single document. They access your birth data from the birth state’s electronic records.

19

In theory, you could probably construct a case like that. Maybe this sort of thing does happen from time to time, and I frankly don’t know how these cases are handled in detail.

Most people do comply with the regulations because they would not be able to live their life, opening a bank account, getting a driver’s license, renting an apartment etc.

And for those folks who live on the fringes of society, as I wrote, there is a great incentive to register if they want to receive welfare (Germany is a welfare state, after all, you are entitled to all sorts of support but if you want to benefit, the government needs to know about you).

20

And then there’s always option 3; getting someone who can produce two of those items to swear to your identity/residence.

I’ve worked elections in Canada and not only are the rules uniform accross the country, but Elections Canada wants as many people as possible to vote. It’s pretty much their entire reason for existing.