How big does a house for one person, or two, need to be?

[Peremensoe]

I must offer a small apology to monstro, who did not ask me to start this thread with her as an example, and who may have felt unfairly pressed to defend herself. I was aiming for a general discussion; monstro’s contributions are much appreciated, but I’m interested in the big picture, not just her personal choice.

@SecondJudith

What I’ve taken from this thread is that houses in the US are fucking huge.

Yes. By almost any standard other than those we’ve become accustomed to, here, in the last few decades.

Not that big houses are bad. There is nothing categorically wrong with a big house; nobody should feel attacked for having one. Bigger families need bigger houses.

It’s a matter of the relationship between the prevailing arrangements we’ve made for ourselves, and the real, core interests that are often not well met. There is something wrong with towns in which almost all the houses are large by traditional standards. Whatever any one person’s or one family’s needs may be, communities are best served by having diverse housing stock.

@kunilou

The real problem I see is that those kind of houses are best suited for singles or childless couples who want everything that comes with home ownership – including maintenance and yard work, as well a mortgage. That’s a small slice of the market, and those people often choose condos (no maintenace) or rental properties (no long-term mortgage.)

While maintenance and mortgages are certainly factors, I believe the reason that small “single-family” houses are a small slice of the market is because relatively few of them exist. If more were built, more would sell. But in the present system, there has been little incentive for builders, real-estate agents, and municipalities to support them. The construction profit margins, the commissions, the tax revenues all pushed for larger houses, or else multi-unit structures.

It is only the people who would live in the things whose interests are not well accounted for.

@CrazyCatLady

One thing you have to keep in mind when talking to a realtor or builder is that “impossible to sell” is really shorthand for “has such limited appeal that it’s going to take a really long time to find a buyer.” Which sounds like a perfectly reasonable description of what monstro is proposing to build.

I hear this all the time, but I do not believe it. The median size of vacant houses is larger than the median size of occupied houses. Market conditions vary dramatically from place to place, of course, but nationwide we have an oversupply of big houses and an undersupply of good small houses. Big houses are not exactly flying on the market, unless they’re being sold at a substantial loss.

A loss for the seller, that is; the agent still gets a nice commission. Again, the interests of builders and agents are theirs, not necessarily yours.

Actually, I think we have moved into a market condition where the interests of real-estate agents are trending toward those of buyers–where small houses will be easier to sell than big ones, because fewer people are able to buy big (even if they still think they’d like to)–but most agents are still working from the previous paradigm.

@aruvqan

Well, hubby and I currently live in an 800 sf house, the bedrooms are microscopic and we are currently planning on bashing out the wall between the 2 bedrooms to make a single normal sized one. There is currently no closet, so it will also be getting closet space put in.

We figure this plus the kitchen renovation is what will be required to actually sell the fucking place. We have loved living here, but we need something more gimp friendly and I want to build custom for my accommodations. The jackass who took a cramped 20x20 cinder block tenant farmers shack and doubled the size had no clue about how to efficiently arrange the inside of the house so it is almost unlivable as it is now.

That’s the thing. Not just the size, but the design. Maybe some people like really big spaces for their own sake, but I believe that what most people want most is space that works, and that makes them comfortable and happy. Just having more space is insufficient.

@even_sven

I’ve lived in some mind-boggling small apartments. The strange thing is, even when my apartment is teeny-tiny, I still end up spending most of my time in a single room. I lived in an apartment that had two rooms the size of a queen bed and one the size of two and a half queen beds. The “big” room became home, and I swear spent no more than a few hours total in the other rooms.

I think it’s all about layout. A small house can be very comfortable if all of the rooms have adequate storage, good traffic flow, enough light and heating/cooling to make it comfortable. But I’ve rarely lived in a small house where all the spaces were truly pleasant and useful places to be.

Not just the size, but the design. In general, the better the design, the smaller the house can actually be without sacrificing anything. I have some other thoughts, but I’ll leave it at this for now.

@Christopher Alexander

…small size does not preclude richness of form. The trick is to intensify and to overlay; to compress the patterns; to reduce them to simple expressions; to make every inch count double. When it is well done, a small house feels wonderfully continuous - cooking a bowl of soup fills the house…

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@CrazyCatLady

One thing you have to keep in mind when talking to a realtor or builder is that “impossible to sell” is really shorthand for “has such limited appeal that it’s going to take a really long time to find a buyer.” Which sounds like a perfectly reasonable description of what monstro is proposing to build. It sounds lovely for a certain kind of buyer, but that kind of buyer is pretty darn thin on the ground, which means when the place does go on the market it’s likely going to sit there for months and months with her paying for it and her new place/nursing home/whatever. It took us over a year to sell our old house when we moved, and that shit bites some seriously huge donkey testicles. Granted, expenses on such a little place will be much lower, but it’s still something worth mulling over before finalizing plans.

Preach it. (My parents had this most wonderful 2400 sq. ft. (later 3400 sq ft after the additions) log cabin that took them a LONG time and at a BIG loss compared to the equivalent prices of homes in the area.

[Lasciel]

@monstro

Can I ax you a querstion? On what basis are you calling me poor? Quotation marks or no, I have never referred to myself in this way since I was in grad school. When I actually was pretty damn close to poor. So I’m curious where you are coming from with this accusation. Is it because you can’t really see any other reason why I’d be against having a big house and a bunch of stuff? You’re a business-type guy, right? I thought ya’ll are inherently supposed to be able to see “out of the box”.

Not that it matters, but I am not poor. I don’t make six figures and I don’t drive a new car. But I’m squarely middle-class, as most environmental scientists are.

FWIW, I judge people as “jerks” based on what they do, not on what they have. For instance, a jerk would be a guy who accuses someone of having an inferiority complex simply because it’s the only narrative his pea brain can come up with. But a person who has a 3 thousand dollar watch is not necessarily a jerk. He or she is just someone who has a 3 thousand dollar watch.

Also, where in this thread have you found me slamming rich people? True, I have slammed a couple of people. But these are people who I personally know to be living beyond their means, and they are not rich. I thought that was okay, bitching about irresponsible people. Especially irresponsible people who you are related to you. That’s bad now? Well then, I guess it’s time to recalibrate my morality meter. Or not.

I prefer not.

I’m going to jump in and say that regardless of what type of income you have now, your childhood obviously did impact you strongly, and what you describe can be very easily interpreted by some people as “poor.” When I was growing up, it was roughly the same as you describe, and I would have thought of us as middle class, but now as an adult, I realize how close to the edge my family really was all the time - I just didn’t realize it until I was older.

The point I’m trying to make is that if you were a child and you know you can do without a lot, and you DID do without a lot (or even if it wasn’t a lot, objectively speaking, but it was something important to you personally) it can really impact your personal balance ledger between needs and wants.

I have a good friend from my same neighborhood who became a gold-digger, and now goes around flaunting her wealth and her possessions, and is constantly trying to find ways to conspicuously spend more money. I went sort of the other way, but I have to admit I spend more money on some specific “stuffs” than I really should. At the same time, I think I judge her more harshly than I should, simply because I know where she came from, and I think she’s compensating in a bad way.

[Jackmannii]

@monstro

If we continue with this mentality…that we’re all entitled to do whatever we want to do, no matter how much sense it makes (sorry, but a 3500 sq ft house for two senior citizens makes no sense to me)–then we will not have anything left to enjoy. There has to be a limit.

Absolutely. Virtually everyone is this thread is improperly and immorally using up more space than they are entitled to, and someone has to put their foot down before it all implodes and there’s no one left to offend.

@ImNotPaulAvery

I think I’ve got you all beat. My GF and I currently share a 450 sq ft apartment. It is tiny, but we’ve made it work with reasonable harmony.

Hah, you’re pikers when it comes to simplicity.

Mrs. J. and I live happily in an 8x4x3 converted broom closet we secretly furnished in a disused wing of the local hospital (we got the idea from an old episode of Ryan’s Hope). The best part is I use up no energy commuting to work. We don’t have much, but we’re extremely rich in contempt for people with wasteful lifestyles.

[monstro]

Sorry for hijacking your thread, spark. But I think amongst the sidetracks, though, people who are interested in smaller houses can still find some good information. At least I hope so!

@Lasciel

I’m going to jump in and say that regardless of what type of income you have now, your childhood obviously did impact you strongly, and what you describe can be very easily interpreted by some people as “poor.” When I was growing up, it was roughly the same as you describe, and I would have thought of us as middle class, but now as an adult, I realize how close to the edge my family really was all the time - I just didn’t realize it until I was older.

I think if we were to do a time-series on my family’s socioeconomics during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, you’d definitely see a rise from working-class (before I was born to when I was a toddler), to lower middle-class (early 80s), upper lower middle-class (mid to late 80s), middle-middle class (most of the 90s). And then after that, with all the kids fully grown up, my parents seemed to sky-rocket into upper-middle class, even though my father took a step down in his career (from vice superintendent of schools to principal.) My mother’s income has always been neglible because she ran her own non-profit; there were huge swaths of time when she didn’t bring home a paycheck but she was still pulling in 10-hour days. So I guess being free from kids launched them into another income bracket? I dunno.

My older siblings can justifiably claim some poverty, but I cannot. Even when my mother was working at Domino’s, we were still living life as we had always lived (though the parental fighting was bad during this time.) To us kids, the Domino’s thing was a joke. It wasn’t until I was teenager that I figured out (all on my own) what had happened. So that would have been a low point in the time-series, but it only lasted a few months and it wasn’t due to income failure as much as overconsumption. On her part.

So…considering that the two of them are living off of my father’s SS pension (again, my mother didn’t really earn enough money to get a big SS pension) and the pension from the school system, I’m thinking that their income makes them middle-middle. The house and all its trappings seem more appropriate for the “upper-middle”, to my inexperienced eye. But when you add in their expensive hobbies, modes of transportation, and the extra house you’d have a situation even an “upper-middle” couple might find daunting, IMHO. But maybe you’re right, and I’m just not accomosted to the radical lifestyle shift that my parents made because I’m still living in the “good ole days”, when the smaller amount we had seemed “normal”. I’m still living in the 80s! Totally radical, dude!!

I have a good friend from my same neighborhood who became a gold-digger, and now goes around flaunting her wealth and her possessions, and is constantly trying to find ways to conspicuously spend more money. I went sort of the other way, but I have to admit I spend more money on some specific “stuffs” than I really should. At the same time, I think I judge her more harshly than I should, simply because I know where she came from, and I think she’s compensating in a bad way.

I think your analysis is interesting. I agree. I think poverty (or being from "lower circumstances) can either make you afraid of spending money or make you compensate by living large. I don’t think either really applies to me, though. I don’t think my upbringing has made me frugal. I think it’s things like the Great Recession, and carrying and then tackling my own credit card debt, that have made me want to go the route of simplicity.

[Kent_Clark]

@monstro

And then after that, with all the kids fully grown up, my parents seemed to sky-rocket into upper-middle class, even though my father took a step down in his career (from vice superintendent of schools to principal.) My mother’s income has always been neglible because she ran her own non-profit; there were huge swaths of time when she didn’t bring home a paycheck but she was still pulling in 10-hour days. So I guess being free from kids launched them into another income bracket? I dunno.

My father used to say that they never had any money until the last of the kids (me) left home. I thought he was going to launch into one of those “when I was your age” lectures, but that wasn’t where he was going at all. After I finished college and went out on my own, he explained, my parents’ disposable income shot up so much that my mother was able to quit her job (a nurse, a respectable midddle-middle income position) and they still had way more money than they had ever had in all the years they had been married.

And they spent. They took fancy vacations that my father didn’t have to combine with business trips so he could write off his share of the expense. They bought better cars than the kid-haulers I grew up riding in. My mother redecorated the house and got the piano she always wanted. They bailed out their kids when we ran into financial trouble. And they STILL had more money than they had when the kids were living at home.

It wasn’t until I had kids of my own that I understood it.

[Rand_Rover]

@monstro

I was told the calculation of square footage varies from place to place, and even from assessor to assessor! But according to the “rule” where I live, any livable space would count. I think that would rule out an unfinished basement.

As far as selling the place goes, I know it will be difficult. I wasn’t born yesterday, and I’ve actually done a lot of footwork (literally) finding a location where I can maximize its market appeal. But I’m not building to flip it, nor do I envision moving or expanding anytime soon. My life story is not writ in stone, I know, but I tend not to plan for the “couldawouldas”, but rather for the “more-than-likelies.” More than likely, I will live in this house for longer than 15 years, or after it’s paid for. And if things change and I can’t find an immediate buyer, I am not afraid of finding a reputable property manager and renting the thing. Maybe no one will buy it, but I know someone will rent it.

In my will, I will donate the house to a local non-profit that would welcome having such a property. What a great way to attract passionate crunchy-granola interns. Low-cost, eco-friendly housing! There’s also a parachioal school just up the block. Maybe the house could be used as a way of attracting a fresh energetic teacher who’s just starting out, who would appreciate not having to balance student debt and high rent, plus all the psychological demands a teacher has to deal with. I’ve also considered the assisted living place across the street. Where do family members stay when they visit their loved ones, I wonder? Nearby hotels can be expensive. I wonder if I could donate the house to the assisted living facility and they can turn it into a hospitality house for family members who live far away and want to visit their loved ones for a couple of days. The place could charge a flat fee per visit to cover utilities, taxes, insurance, and maintenance. But it would still be a cheaper price than what hotels charge (and make for a nicer stay too!) It could be marketed as a perk for doing business there. Spend a few hours with your loved one, and then have fun in Richmond the rest of the time. A hospitality house could assuage some of the guilt associated with putting a parent in a home, I would think.

I’m not worried about what will happen to my house. I’m very creative.

Well, that sounds all well and good, but if your house is in a nice area, I’d expect any new owner to tear it down and build a house more fitting there. So, in your potential scenarios that involve selling, you may just want to figure getting only lot value.

[Rand_Rover]

@Jackmannii

Absolutely. Virtually everyone is this thread is improperly and immorally using up more space than they are entitled to, and someone has to put their foot down before it all implodes and there’s no one left to offend.Hah, you’re pikers when it comes to simplicity.

Mrs. J. and I live happily in an 8x4x3 converted broom closet we secretly furnished in a disused wing of the local hospital (we got the idea from an old episode of Ryan’s Hope). The best part is I use up no energy commuting to work. We don’t have much, but we’re extremely rich in contempt for people with wasteful lifestyles.

slow clap, wipes away tear

[perfectparanoia]

@monstro

And then after that, with all the kids fully grown up, my parents seemed to sky-rocket into upper-middle class, even though my father took a step down in his career (from vice superintendent of schools to principal.)

We went from being DINKs to having a 5 and six year old. Our cashflow has changed drastically. We easily spend 10 or 20 thousand a year on the kids. If there were four <faints>.

So, not having them would mean a significant amount of extra money.

The reality is, you get no say in how your parents did or do spend their money. Are they happy with their big home and lots of stuff?

My parents did the same thing when we left the nest. However, they love their home so much that I can’t begrudge them that. When we were kids, they scrimped and saved and I often found myself working many hours at my part-time jobs to save for college and try to help out (by buying my own clothes, toiletries and gas for the car).

I think it is perfect for them. And they are happy. <shrugs>

[JoelUpchurch]

I was thinking about providing temporary housing for the people who are homeless in northern Honshu and discovered there is a lot of technology for converting cargo containers into housing. A standard cargo container is 8x20 or 320 square feet. What is interesting is that there are container ships that can haul more than 10,000 containers. One load could provide housing for temporary housing for 10,000 families. The 40ft units (640ft) would provide permanent housing with kitchen and bathroom.

http://www.chuckhouses.com/Ultimate.html
http://www.tempohousing.com/projects/keetwonen.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_container_architecture

It turns out that used cargo containers can be purchased quite cheaply in the U.S., since we import much more than we export and sometimes it isn’t economical to send back the empties.

Some of the designs by Tempo Housing actually look quite nice.

[monstro]

@perfectparanoia

The reality is, you get no say in how your parents did or do spend their money. Are they happy with their big home and lots of stuff?

My parents did the same thing when we left the nest. However, they love their home so much that I can’t begrudge them that. When we were kids, they scrimped and saved and I often found myself working many hours at my part-time jobs to save for college and try to help out (by buying my own clothes, toiletries and gas for the car).

I think it is perfect for them. And they are happy. <shrugs>

I think happiness is a great goal in life. That’s what everyone wants. But there are multiple routes to get to happiness. IMHO, it seems like most Americans only see one route. Get more stuff. Buy big and live large. But things are kinda stressful. They break. They cost money to maintain. They become obsolete. They must be protected from theft and accidents and covered by expensive insurance. You not only have to have money to buy things, but you have to have money to keep things. I guess I don’t want to go down this route towards happiness, because I personally don’t want to deal with all the headache. I’d rather find another way to be happy. But everyone’s mileage differs. I don’t judge people who are able to find happiness while being responsible about it.

My parents seem as happy as they’ve ever been, which I know doesn’t communicate much. They fight between themselves all the time (often about money) but are very pleasant to talk to on the phone one-on-one, so that’s a positive. They are still together after forty-something years, so that’s something. But I don’t know how to gauge their happiness in any absolute sense, I guess. My mother lives in another dimension when it comes to emotions, so I can’t read her, and my father is always cussing and complaining about this thing or the other. I don’t know what they would be like either happy or unhappy…but that’s probably more of my own dysfunction than theirs. I do know that my father gets really mad when yet another thing breaks…and things always seem to be breaking! Maybe they just bought a lemon for a house and my father just has bad luck with cars. Whatever it is, I couldn’t deal with that stress. Especially after I’ve retired. Isn’t that supposed to be the time you really relax and have fun?

You’re right that I get no say in how my parents spend their money, just as I got no say when I was a kid under their roof. But I do get to talk about how I feel about it on the internet, right? I mean, as long as I’m not nagging my parents and trying to be all self-righteousy to their faces, seems to me that I have the basic right to feel and say whatever the hell I want about their choices, and decide “Nuh-uh. Not for me.”

[monstro]

@Rand_Rover

Well, that sounds all well and good, but if your house is in a nice area, I’d expect any new owner to tear it down and build a house more fitting there. So, in your potential scenarios that involve selling, you may just want to figure getting only lot value.

Well, the lot has been vacant for as long as heck was a pup, probably because it is so small. So anyone looking to build there would have to build small. Either that or very tall and narrow.

Selling it wouldn’t be my first choice anyway.

[Voyager]

@kunilou

My father used to say that they never had any money until the last of the kids (me) left home. I thought he was going to launch into one of those “when I was your age” lectures, but that wasn’t where he was going at all. After I finished college and went out on my own, he explained, my parents’ disposable income shot up so much that my mother was able to quit her job (a nurse, a respectable midddle-middle income position) and they still had way more money than they had ever had in all the years they had been married.

We finished pay for college for our last kid about a year ago, and we are now paying cash for a big house renovation out of the money we were able to put in the bank and not in the coffers of the University of Maryland. I’m glad that both of them are now on their own debt free. but it is nice to have the money.

[Diver]

Eight years ago we sold our 3600 square foot house and set out to see the country in a motor home.
While driving down the road we have about 300 square ft.
When stopped with the slide outs extended we have about 350 square ft. We do have 128 cubic ft of what is termed “basement” storage. These are compartments that are underneath the floor and accessed from outside.

We enjoy it and really don’t feel cramped.
We do have the advantage of being able to follow the sun to stay in comfortable temperatures and generally spend at least some time outside under the awning each day.

During our travels we have seen people happily living in slide in pickup campers and converted vans .

[TokyoBayer]

Our house is 730 sq ft for a family of four. It’s a three story house, with zero land. Of course, it’s in Tokyo, so the only way to get more space for the same amount of money was to tack on another 30 minutes commute each way.

I’d rather spend the time with the kids.

[Isamu]

I have a very small 60 meter sq., one bedroom apartment in the middle of the Osaka city business district. Its enough for the wife and I, and a snap to keep clean, but I’m thinking we’ll have to sell if we have kids, and move out to the 'burbs.