Well, there is one person who Jesus promised would go to heaven, and it was the thief who was crucified next to him.
One thief railed against Jesus. The other said “Do you not fear God even now? We are receiving the just penalty of our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said to Jesus “Remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
And Jesus did not say “Oh no - nobody should be executed.” He recognized the thief’s contrition and said “Truly I say to you - this day you shall be with me in Paradise.”
No implication that the death penalty was wrong; only that contrition is right.
I think this can be over-applied. You could even interpret this as an endorsement of crucifixion as the penalty for stealing. But I think Jesus took Old Testament morality as a given, which would include the death penalty.
It’s not “my” defination. Jesus supposedly uttered certain ideas. He was against the death penalty, for caring for the poor, a champion of the oppressed. He said nothing about homosexuals, masturbation, or sex before marriage. All that stuff is from the law of Moses in the Old Testement.
It is true that I am not a Christian, but it’s not because they didn’t try to make me one. I was one of the few children who had difficulty with the hypocracy I saw around me even then.
Paul is generally believed to have been executed during Nero’s reign from 54-68 AD. The execution was likely after the burning of Rome in 64 AD. (http://www.britannica.com/ estimates 67 AD)
There is no scholarship that rebuts the contention that Paul wrote the book of Romans. Therefore, the book of Romans could not have been written more than 30-40 yrs after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
As to the second point, in the early days Christianity was seen as a sect of Judaism. In fact, that was some measure of protection for them. For the Jews were the only conquered people that did NOT have to acknowledge Caeser as God. This gave early Christians the freedom to proselytize since they were not expected to acknowledge Caeser. Once they were “outed”, they could be persecuted. And indeed they were. The proselytizing was an issue. The Jews largely kept to themselves (besides you had to be pretty serious to convert when it involved circumcision.) The Christians just wouldn’t shut up.
Jesus himself said that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. What that means has been the subject of some debate (a lot of debate) for the last 2000 yrs (less 30-40 yrs). But the point remains is whatever the fulfilled law is, understanding it is contingent on understanding the OT.
Christians are by and large not Jews. But Jesus, Paul, Mathew, Mark, John, Peter, James, and Jude were (as was the writer of the book Hebrews.) The OT cannot be dismissed by Christians as it is instrumental in understanding the NT. Nor can Christians become Orthodox Jews. That whole fulfillment thing is a major stumbling block.
“But see, That’s the Old Testement and the book of Romans was written God-knows-when; probably a century or more after christ. So really, all these so-called Christians should become Orthodox Jews if the Old Testement is such a large part of their religeon.”
The Christian Bible consists of two, equally important parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Right in the middle is the birth of Christ… thus the creation of Christians. There are no inconsistencies between the Old and New Testaments. There are only inconsistencies in Man’s interpretations of the words therein, often interpretted to support their own beliefs and not read to determine what they should believe.
Yup. Matthew 5:38 “YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU that you resist not evil: but whomsoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn him the other also.”
(tracer, did you know that quote is from a bishop during the Crusades? The soliders wondered if they should attack a town that was part Muslim and part Christian. He said “Kill them all, God will recognize his own.”)
I’ve been to funerals for two friends within the last 5 years, both murdered in cold blood. One was my senior prom date.
I can’t conceive of NOT supporting the death penalty.
And yes, I am a Christian. And no, I don’t give a damn what you think of my religion. I’m not here criticizing yours, or making ill-informed judgements about what your beliefs are supposed to be. I’m constantly amazed by the sheer number of otherwise intelligent people who spout all kinds of stupid stereotypes when they feel a need to criticize Christians.
I support the death penalty because I don’t believe that my tax money should go toward providing comfortable lives for murderers. I don’t want to supply them with a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, and cable TV when they are responsible for the deaths of innocent people and the grief that those people’s families and friends went through.
One of my college buddies was working as a cabbie. A 15-year-old boy got in his cab one night, had my friend drive him to his high school, and proceeded to shoot my friend in the back of the head. This kid was already wanted for kidnapping, rape, and armed robbery. He’s doing life right now. I feel dirty when I think that my tax money is going toward his comfort.
My senior prom date was murdered by a stalker who then turned the gun on himself and blew his own brains out. I say good riddance to him. He ended the life of a beautiful person and he I believe he deserved to die for it. Does that make me a bad person? Well, if you think so, I can live with it.
My religious beliefs are between me and God. As far as my beliefs on crime and punishment, I lean more toward punishment.
Now I’m gonna go read some other threads and be my usual irreverent, witty self. See you guys in the fun threads.
As a Christian, I am secure in the fact that God weighs each violation of His commandment differently. Technically a father who accidentally shoots his son while hunting has violated the commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” Ditto for the woman who goes to an abortion clinic. And ditto once again for the man who rapes and murders a child.
But I believe that persons A, B, and C will be judged very differently by God.
I think the state punishing Ted Bundy for the crimes he committed against man is a matter for the state. How he will be punished for the crimes he committed against God is a matter for God.
Will he die for his crimes? Yes. Will he spend eternity in hell? That’s for God to decide.
I’m sorry you had to endure that. No, I haven’t, but I really believe that it’s irrelevant.
I’m constantly amazed by the sheer number of otherwise intelligent people who believe that any jail is comfortable. I’m constantly amazed by the sheer number of otherwise compassionate people who value the money in their wallets, purses and bank accounts more than they do a human life.
If you think a jail is all that comfortable, why don’t you go visit one? I bet you’d change your mind REAL fast. I was in one for a week (I was innocent, accused of writing bad checks; my roommate had stolen my checkbook and was writing them) and I learned that it was far rougher than I thought and I never thought it was comfortable even before that. The food is crappy; the clothes don’t keep you warm when the A/C is turned down too low (in jails that HAVE A/C, that is; Texas jails, for example, aren’t air-conditioned); you shit, piss and shower in full view of everyone; the beds are hard and almost impossible to sleep in; the presence of cable TV has probably contributed to more fights (some of them fatal) than any other factor (the TVs are usually in a common room, not in the individual cells; there are usually disagreements on what to watch); and you live in constant fear that one of your cellmates is going to rape you, steal your food or kill you for no particular reason other than he doesn’t like you and he wants what you have. You might be right if you say a murderer deserves to live in fear and discomfort the rest of his life, but what about those who truly committed no crime and are found innocent at trial? Shouldn’t we at least make sure they survive until they DO come to trial? If it makes life more comfortable for the truly guilty, well, that’s a price we have to pay, IMHO.
Do you believe that no one innocent of murder has been executed in this country? Could you go to the loved one of such an innocent and say, “Well, I’m sorry your husband/brother/son was executed, but he had to be killed so we could keep the death penalty and get rid of the real murderers.”