Re signs, I have not seen many signs for anyone in Evansville, Indiana. I drove up across the whole state today to my mom’s in Crown Point and again did not see many signs, but I saw both Harris and Trump signs in theoretically red counties. Not much of a data point, but there you go.
There’s been an awful lot of disparagement of Trump voters throughout this thread and all across the SDMB in general. I’m not sure that’s the best strategy for helping Harris and Walz win the election.
Nicolas Kristof wrote about this in his opinion piece in today’s New York Times:
[…]
First, he [Bill Clinton] warned against hubris: “We’ve seen more than one election slip away from us when we thought it couldn’t happen, when people got distracted by phony issues or overconfident.” That’s something that any Clinton understands in his — or her — gut.Second, related and even more important, he cautioned against demeaning voters who don’t share liberal values.
“I urge you to meet people where they are,” said Clinton, who knows something about winning votes outside of solid blue states.
[…]
That’s critical counsel because too often since 2016, the liberal impulse has been to demonize anyone at all sympathetic to Donald Trump as a racist and bigot. This has been politically foolish, for it’s difficult to win votes from people you’re disparaging.
It has also seemed to me morally offensive, particularly when well-educated and successful elites are scorning disadvantaged, working-class Americans who have been left behind economically and socially and in many cases are dying young. They deserve empathy, not insults.
I can not give a gift link because it is not my NYT account, but here is the link.
I remember offending some fellow Dopers when I compared Trump rallies to Grateful Dead concerts. I meant that he had the same crowds following him from show to show like Phish or the Dead.
I don’t think it makes any difference at all. Only a few thousand (at best) mostly self-selected people see this message board at all, almost all of those who do have already decided how they are voting for (if anyone) and far as I know nobody here has any influence over the Harris/Walz campaign strategy.
Always remember that in the greater political universe everything said here is virtually meaningless and has no impact on anything .
If you’re saying the Harris/Walz campaign shouldn’t embrace the public partisan crankiness of a bunch of aging randos on a message board…well, I don’t think you have to worry all that much. I don’t think they will.
Yeah, there’s a big difference between people calling it like it is (which we definitely are) and a campaign adopting that as a key message.
Honesty is a common trait among liberals and other rational-thinking people. The Times should try it sometime.
If you support Trump you’re supporting a convicted con man who tried to overthrow the government.
That is because anyone actually voting for Trump, is voting to cancel basic human rights, destroy US democracy, destroy the US economy, the environment. All to hurt the right people.
They are almost cartoonishly evil.
It would be funny, but there’s 80 million of them.
Trump voters are stupid assholes. This isn’t disparagement, it’s objectively factual truth.
The Trump voters are cartoonishly evil? Isn’t it possible that some folks support Trump for reasons other than evilness? They may be poor reasons that were arrived at irrationally but IMO, that doesn’t mean all of his supporters are evil.
Quoting the NYT opinion piece:
Second, related and even more important, he cautioned against demeaning voters who don’t share liberal values.
As a non-American I’m not directly involved in this, but I think it’s fair to say that my criticisms aren’t directed against those “who don’t share liberal values”. I suspect that most American progressives, like me, direct their ire against low-information fact-deprived idiots, which is not the same thing. These idiots are responsible for Trump’s ascent and for the many like-minded morons in Congress. I’m always happy to have intelligent conversations with well-informed conservatives, and may even agree with them sometimes. Trump is a single-mindedly self-serving criminal whose level of stupidity is such that he can’t even string together a single coherent sentence. It’s hard to have any respect for anyone who thinks this is greatness.
It has also seemed to me morally offensive, particularly when well-educated and successful elites are scorning disadvantaged, working-class Americans who have been left behind economically and socially and in many cases are dying young. They deserve empathy, not insults.
Yes, they deserve empathy, not insults, for the situation they’re in. The salient question is why disadvantaged, working-class Americans are being left behind economically and socially. Is it possibly the Grand Old Party of “personal responsibility” that tells them it’s all their own damn fault while cutting taxes on billionaires? And how could they be dying young when their Orange Savior promised them a “beautiful, terrific health care plan”?
I just had to get that off my chest. It’s the truth, but it’s unrelated to what should be the right political messaging for Harris/Walz. I don’t envy the challenge they face. Their opposition is truly evil and an existential threat to America and beyond, and yet they can’t say it because to the uninformed it sounds exactly like the unbelievable bullshit that Trump is always spouting at his rallies.
To decide if someone/something is evil, the only thing of consequence is the result of their actions.
They are going to vote/voted for someone who tried to overthrow democracy. Stopped endorsing the Paris climate agreements. Appointed judges whose only qualification is their willingness to shit on others bodily autonomy. Who is convicted of multiple felonies, can be legally called a rapist.
Who thinks Arlington is full of losers and suckers
(“I don’t get it; what was in it for them”)
How is that not evil?
If that is not evil you just semantic-ed evil out of this world.
Yes, that’s the sad “bothsiderism” that comes out. One side truly is anti-democracy, out to radically change our system of government to remove liberties, but the Republicans have been using that accusation against Democrats for decades (eternity?). Now that there is a Republican doing just that, and the Republicans are complicit in limiting voter access for their opponents, the low-information public is left with the feeling that the Dems are just using the same kind of exaggerated rhetoric.
And the news media is stuck. Call out the real difference and state of affairs and be dismissed as not impartial. Or soft pedal the Republican offences to retain credibility to an audience that largely won’t grant it anyway.
Meanwhile Fox has been spewing lies for so long they’ve insulated their audience from real unbalanced news so long that they can say anything unchecked to their audience, so they do.
“Fascist!” Or “Communist!”
“Anti-American!”
“They want to take away our liberties!”
“They pose an existential threat to American democracy!”
“LIARS!”
It all sounds the same.
You forgot “Marxist,” which Trump has decided is one of his adjectives for Harris: “Marxist Kamala.” Of course, neither he nor his followers have any idea what Marxism is, or who Marx was.
I’ve asked around here several times for explanations of how to think of Chump supporters as other than “bad people”, yet haven’t gotten great answers. Yeah, I have nothing good to say about whatever percentage of his supporters are “true believing” MAGA. But I feel there is SOMETHING motivating SOME Chump voters other than racism and bigotry. Not saying that SOMETHING is GOOD, of course…
Even this. I guess I’m seeking a distinction w/ little difference. Believing a Chump voter may not be “evil”, but will gladly vote for an evil person…
Basically this.
I’ll burn my first gift link of the new month on y’all, because it’s so relevant to the (perennial) debate in the last few posts:
NY Times Opinion
Nicholas Kristof
Here’s Why We Shouldn’t Demean Trump Voters
Be sure to read the readers’ comments, then click the tab to order them by “Reader’s Picks.” Most of the comments, and nearly all the highest-upvoted ones, disagree with Kristof – they’ve come to the same sad conclusion I have, that anyone that would vote for Trump is an asshole.
An interesting dimension in the essay, disputed by many readers in their comments, is that Trump supporters tend to be poor, so we should feel sorry for them.
ETA: I’m an idiot. I Love Me Vol. 1 already offered the same gift link upthread, and several of you quoted extracts from it! Oh well.
I grew up middle class. I earned a bachelor’s in mechanical engineering and worked 20 years in the space industry, i.e. NASA.
After being laid off, I ended up moving to be closer to my family. Depression and anxiety have kept me from pursuing engineering. I had trouble even being able to look for any kind of job. With therapy and meds, I have stabilized and have shifted gears.
Now I work for Walmart as a low level manager. I have gone from a salaried job to an hourly job. My income is about a third of what I once made.
I say this to show my background, and that I am now living a working class life. A couple of my bosses have not gone to college. I work with a mix of college students and adults who never went to college.
I have friends who work at the University, and others who are working class.
I interact with strong progressive liberals and conservatives.
My neighbor now is flying a new Trump flag. I have friendly conversations with him, but l don’t discuss politics.
My friends, though, we have talked politics a bit. They don’t come at it bigoted. I have had friends that don’t think they are racist, but steeped in southern culture and dropping occasional comments that have bigoted roots. I’ve explained why these comments aren’t appreciated.
I don’t think any of them are fascists. But I struggle with them supporting the Republicans, and Trump in particular.
I’ll probably make another attempt with a couple of them soon.
I don’t disparage everyone who is a Republican or Trump supporter. I don’t pick on class or rural background. But I definitely disparage their decisions on who to support and why.
I will analyze commonalities to understand what draws people to that party and that candidate. And I will speak about Party leadership in strong labels because they earn those labels by their words and actions and participation in hateful and anti-democratic activities.
But you don’t support Trump?
FWIW and of course just IMHO: there are many reasons that some support Trump and while I strongly disagree with them not all are “evil”. I don’t understand it very well I admit. But what I don’t understand very well is a very big set. Dismissing a large fraction of our country’s citizens as such is IMHO simultaneously elitist and even worse intellectually lazy.
Yeah I think many are driven by ignoble motivations, by resentment and entitlement for example. That though is human not evil.
I guess this is the point of the thread where our enlightened centrists claim that being too “mean” in a message board will cause Donald Trump to win.
Walk on eggshells and pander to Christian White men. That’s always the advice.
The posters on this board have the power of their individual votes, and their contributions, both in money and work they are willing to do. This board is not a place filled with Trump supporters,White Christian men or otherwise. What you or I say here has zero impact and we know it. So no. My comment has nothing to do with not being “mean” to them, or pandering to them. It is just sharing thoughts.
Yeah, exactly — if you stand up to them and tell them what you really think, they might give you a black eye pass extra harsh legislation. Better to be quiet and respectful and demure.