How closely do color terms boundaries mesh between similar languages?

Now before we begin, I understand that languages generally develop names for colors along one of a few paths. (I believe Cecil even wrote an article on this). I’m not asking about that. What I’m asking is, (assuming this theory of basic color terms is true), how closely the boundaries between colors align between languages.

So my question is, in the presence of languages that have the same basic color terms along a certain subset of the visible spectrum – in general, how closely do the boundaries between those color terms align?

I believe, to head off the easy example, that in Japanese “green” (either guriin or midori) is not linguistically considered a basic color term but rather an alias for a specific shade of aoi (blue) – so talking about the boundary between green and blue doesn’t hold for comparison in that case.

The question is essentially, “in two languages that have basic color words for both orange and red, but no basic color terms in between, how closely between the two languages are the boundaries between red and orange aligned (in general)?” Replace “orange” and “red” with any pair of colors that are prudent. If there are any differences in cultures that speak the same language that could be interesting too.

I don’t know about generalities, but Stephen Fry in his current radio series about the English language did an episode about colors. Much of it focused on how the concept of “blue” seemed to have been a difficult one for language to adopt, classically. He interviewed a lady who was fluent in both English and Italian, who explained that Italian has two words for “blue”, one referring to a lighter blue and one to a dark blue (indigo would be our closest translation), and that Italians really see those as two different colors.

FWIW.

I am also recalling something from Greek, where in (I believe) the Iliad, the translations for descriptions of the ocean were different enough from descriptions of skies that they took to calling them “wine-dark seas” in the translation in order to preserve the difference, as it was obviously substantial and important in the original.

I cannot remember if the theory was put forth that it was because the original was an oral tradition, so the original reciters needed a lot of really particular phrases to aid memorization (or to allow the reciter to skip stuff or make things up and still sound ok) or if they thought it was because there was a legitimate differentiation between sky blue and ocean blue as colors.

Sorry I can’t add more to your query - it’s an interesting question!

I am going to guess: cultural or geographic closeness is more important than similarity of languages. Japanese is a language isolate, with influence from Chinese, and the same concept exists in Chinese I believe. I don’t know about Korean, another isolate with Chinese influence.

From here: Russian and Georgian have the concepts of dark vs. light blue, and have influence but aren’t related. It says Ukranian only has one, don’t know how accurate that is.

The locus classicus for this subject is Basic Color Terms: Their Universality and Evolution, by Brent Berlin and Paul Kay.

Before Scandinavian picked up a word for black (svart in Swedish, sort in Danish/Norwegian) we used blue instead, hence Harald Bluetooth.

As a slight aside, the way the human eye works means it is not that clear-cut what the primaries and secondaries are. Or at least, it doesn’t form an entirely consistent picture. Here is a short page about this.

I’m suspicious that the word for black is so recent. The Germanic root is very old, and manifests itself in English as “swarthy”.

Homer didn’t have a word for “blue”. Together, the Iliad and the Odyssey use the following names of colors: -

melas (black)
various words meaning “white”
erythros (red)
xanthos (yellow)
ioeis (violet)

The poems did use chloros, which would eventually become the Greek word for “green”. In Homer’s time, however, it meant something like “fresh”, and he used it to describe honey, pale faces, and twigs.

The word kyaneos, which would later become the Greek word for “blue”, does make a few appearances. To Homer, however, it meant “dark”, and he only used it to describe Zeus’s eyebrows, Hector’s hair, and dark clouds.

So, with limited color words available, Homer had to get inventive. He would either use color words very loosely (such as describing sheep, iron, and the ocean as “violet”), or he would use comparisons. Hence describing the sea as oinops, which literally means “wine-looking”. He’s not comparing the color, but rather the darkness of the sea. He used the same word to describe oxen. He also described the sky as “iron”, “copper” or “bronze”, drawing a comparison to the shinyness of the metal, rather than its color.

In Victorian times, it was thought that the ancient Greeks were partially colorblind. Nowadays, however, it is thought that they just hadn’t developed words for certain colors yet.

(This information comes from Through the Language Glass by Guy Deutscher, where he is referring to research done by William Gladstone.)

I’m also curious about this. According to research (Berlin & Kay, 1969), languages develop words for colors in the following, predictable order: -

Black and white / dark and light (every language has these words)
Red
Yellow or green
Green or yellow
Blue
Brown
Purple, orange and grey

From a quick glance at an online dictionary, Old Norse had three words for “black”: blár, blakkr, and svartr. The word for “blue” is also blár. So I guess the word originally meant both black and blue, then eventually came to mean blue only. And then svartr was borrowed from German, to become the new word for black.

I’m guessing that’s somewhere along the lines like how we call gray cats and dogs “blue.” Nobody seriously perceives them as blue; it’s just a term.

Never mind languages. I would be surprised if individuals who speak the same language do not vary over where they judge the boundaries of basic color words to lie. (I am not talking about colorblind people. I mean people who can discriminate colors as well as anyone.) We all learn to use color words in a pretty casual way. If we are to be limited to just a handful of words, who is to say whether a certain greeny-blue is beter counted as blue or as green?

While cross cultural variability is almost certainly larger, I do believe there is evidence within cultures. The xkcd link humorously looks at that, where what is “red” for men is a plethora of colors for females. There is some evidence of a physiological basis, e.g. our cones a polymorphic and L is not always a fixed 560nm. Plus female tetrachromacy, but we’re still working on that.

My point is not about physiological differences though. People who actually have exactly the same color experiences, and who speak the same dialect of the same language, might nevertheless, if you force them to use only basic color words, make judgements about how to apply the words to edge cases differently. As I understand it, this is the sort of thing the OP is asking about, and I am suggesting that there may well be more variation within cultures than between them. This is just a consequence of the informal, casual way we all learn our native languages.

What xkcd link?

There was a Radiolab podcast on color that I listened to recently where they talked about the psychological aspect of color perception. It started with the scholarly work on color terms in classical Greek literature (that was referenced by Cecil and is commonly covered in anthropology classes) and went from there. It’s a very good primer on the subject, covering topics that I’d picked up from various different sources over the years, and introducing a few new tidbits that I hadn’t heard before.

They talked about tetrachromat vision, but surprisingly found that it may not provide much advantage over simply being very aware of color and cultivating perception — as a painter or other artist might. Their tetrachromat candidate (a woman with marker genes on both chromosomes) had the ability to distinguish very similar colors that normal people couldn’t distinguish, but wasn’t demonstrably more able than a normal trichromat female interior decorator, or even a male painter they asked to participate as controls in the informal study they staged for the show.

In the section on talking about what color the sky is, they brought up the idea that control or reproducibility is important in naming colors. You’d think that blue would be one of the easiest colors for languages to have a term for. The sky is “blue” after all, and some bodies of water are different shades of blue. Surprisingly, blue is one of the least common terms in languages.

The current theory is that color perception is influenced by both environmental cues and linguistic terms. This is not as reductive as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but the lack of a word for a shade of color can lead to that difference being lumped together with another part of the spectrum as a non-distinctive difference. If you’ve got a word for that color, then there’s importance attached to it, so you train yourself to be aware of the distinction. You might not even perceive the difference if your linguistic and cultural upbringing doesn’t attach importance to doing so.

I think this is similar to the pruning we do when acquiring language. We can all hear the same sounds, physically, but the sounds we hear in the language or languages we acquire as our native languages heavily influences which sounds we perceive and which we are able to reliably distinguish. If you grow up with a click language, or tone language, you hear distinctive differences that are almost absurdly difficult for people to grasp whose native languages don’t feature those distinctions. In a very real sense, they are unable to “hear” those differences, despite the fact that their physical hearing apparatus is no different.

If you do some reading on how we process sight and sound, you’ll find that our brains do some seriously heavy interpolation and processing in order to change what we actually see or hear into what we think we see or hear. Sight, for example, is so process-intensive that there’s about an 80 millisecond lag between audible and visual perception. The amount of processing your brain has to do means that color perception is, to some degree, subjective. Your eyes and the eyes of a New Guinea tribesman are virtually identical, but you perceive things in extremely different ways due to cultural and linguistic differences.

Building on what Jragon wrote earlier about Japanese blue/green perception, there are different words for blue and indigo in Japanese, and most — if not all — Japanese do not consider them to be the same color at all. Since I learned about this curious difference, I’ve asked many different Japanese and been told by almost everyone that they are completely different colors, not shades of the same color. The few who have told me differently are suspect because they’re also fluent in another language and have spent some amount of time overseas.

Japanese also use both 橙 (basically, a species of orange) and オレンジ from the English. 橙 seems to describe the chunk of spectrum English speakers would consider orange all the way to an ochre color verging on brown. オレンジ is normally used for brighter orange colors.

The word for orange in Castilian Spanish is naranja (orange), which apparently either didn’t exist, or the native terms were supplanted when citrus fruits were introduced to Spain in the 13th century. I don’t know Catalan, but I’d suspect the root is very similar there.

These are both plausible examples of the introduction of a color term into languages that previously didn’t have a distinction. I don’t think anyone yet has done any research into color use before and after the introduction of a new color term to see if there is a difference in usage independent of dye and pigmentation technology. There’s a solid PhD’s worth of work on that subject, I’m sure.

That is telling us that tetrachromacy may not really exist. Just because a woman has the genes that might code for four different cone types, it does not follow that all four genes will be expressed, or that the neural circuits that would be needed to support trichromacy will develop. As I understand it, the results of more formal studies on trichromacy remain inconclusive. There is some evidence to suggest it occurs, but it is not very strong.

This is a misleading way of conceptualizing visual processing. “We” are not waiting at the other end of our brain to see what visual information it eventually delivers to “us”. There is not an “end product” of visual processing, and we do not have to wait until all the visual processing of something is done before we finally see whatever it is that is in front of our eyes. (The same applies to auditory processing.)

I do not think this at all a generally accepted view these days. Maybe we perceive some things in subtly different ways, but the real differences are not in perceptual experience, but in how we conceive of the things we see, and express out responses to them verbally (and otherwise).

I am fairly sure that experiments have shown that people from all cultures are equally good at distinguishing any two arbitrary colors, even ones very close in hue. Their language (and perhaps other aspects of culture and experience) may affect how they conceive of colors, how they respond to them, and even how they remember them, but it does not affect basic perceptual discrimination.

You can see the difference too, can’t you? Indeed, you apparently even have words (blue, indigo) that differentiate the different colors; it is just that one of those is a word we rarely use in English. This is a linguistic difference, not a perceptual one. (I will bet you, also, that a Japanese person will readily agree that his “blue” and his “indigo” are a lot more similar to one another than either is to yellow or red.)

Sorry, confusing threads. Here:

I like the girl/boy color chart on the bottom. I’ve often said unless they’re a color professional (artist, printer, or some such) men only recognize the colors in a crayon box–eight not sixty-four. The only exceptions are pink and tan.

Based on a quick look in a concordance, the Hebrew words for “green”, “yellow”, “brown”, “orange” or “gray” do not appear in the Bible (OT). It seems as though the only colors the Jews of circa 500 BC either recognized or cared about were red, white, blue (using a word that in modern Hebrew refers to *light *blue), purple and black.