How did it come to be?
Is it legal or illegal but tolerated?
How large a part of the economy is it?
How are the prostitutes looked upon by other citizens?
Prostitution to some extent has always been present in Thailand. It comes in several distinct flavors:
- Prostitutes that service and are available mainly or only to Thais. This would make up the largest segment and can vary from really squalid conditions to very posh clubs in Bangkok. Many of these women come from Burma or areas of Thailand near Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai.
- Prostitutes that service and are available mainly to Japanese. There are a significant number of Japanese expats in Bangkok, but as far as I know not in other parts of the country as much.
- Prostitutes that service mainly Western expats and tourists. Most of these men would come from Europe, although there is also significant numbers of men who visit from Australia, USA, the Middle East and Africa. Most of the women involved in this trade are from Isaarn, an area in Northeast Thailand near Laos. Laos used to be part of Thailand.
The most visible prostitution is the Western part, since most Thais, Japanese, etc, won’t haul their short time girlfriends around town. This part of the business really got started during the Vietnam war when the US Military had bases in Thailand and would send soldiers to Thailand for R&R. Isaarn is the poorest part of the country and women there, and in other rural areas, are often undereducated and underemployed. During the war they came to realize they could better their lives by marrying or sleeping with (relatively) rich foreigners. Some of them are quite good at separating these men from their money. Sometimes the line between prostitution and dating here is very gray.
Illegal but tolerated, with some attempts at regulation.
Really hard to say, as you’d have to decouple the effects on tourism. Yes, there is sex tourism - men who come visit with the chief purpose of getting laid. It’s also probably it’s a consideration while not a main concern for many - think of it like Vegas in that respect.
Mostly tolerated, looked down on certainly by most, in the sense that most parents wouldn’t want their child to be one, marry one, etc. Not totally shunned as they might be in your town.
I’m sure Sam will be in at some point to add a lot to this.
Cite?
What do they do to seperate men from their money? Pitiful stories or desperatly needing cash? Anything else?
Why are demographics split that way between locals, Japanese and westerners? I can see that the typical Japanese and westerner would have more money. Do the prostitutes involved in the three groups tend to have different characteristics?
One of the mechanisms is very simple and used in many other locations and times: the girls work in a bar and get a cut of whatever they get the john to order. Often this also involves something like the guy paying for expensive whisky for everybody, he gets cheap whisky and the girl gets apple juice. Bars with this kind of setup are called “bares de alterne” (meetup bars) in Spanish, I know I’ve seen Sam mention it here.
Is it any more widespread than in any other SE Asian country, or just more visible?
Wikipedia:
In the 17th century Lan Xang entered a period of decline and the late 18th century Siam (now Thailand) established control over much of what is now Laos. The region was divided into three dependent states centered on Luang Prabang in the north, Vientiane in the center, and Champassak in the south. The Vientiane Lao rebelled in 1828 but were defeated, and the area was incorporated into Siam. Following its occupation of Vietnam, France absorbed Laos into French Indochina via treaties with Siam in 1893 and 1904.
It’s a bit of language skills and a bit of what each group considers attractive. Fair skin is prized by Asians, for example. Most of the Japanese bars in Bangkok, at least the ones I’ve seen, tend to all be on the same street, either on or near Soi Patpong II, iirc. The western places are mostly Patpong I (there’s also a gay area nearby), Nana Plaza, Soi Cowboy and probably some other areas. There was a place called Clinton Plaza that I believe has been razed. There are some western spots along Sukhumvit Soi 33 and probably several others that I never knew about or have forgotten. These areas all tend to have a mix of things, and you’ll see both men and women wandering around them.
It does not carry the same social stigma as it does in the west. Thailand was never colonized, and never had that repressed Puritan/Christian ethic forced into it’s culture. The Thai’s, in many ways see a man using his strong back or brain, to earn a living, to keep his family, as not much different than a woman using her looks. There is, without a doubt, a lot of prostitution just like in the west, with pimps and brothels, abuses and enslavement, even children. But it grew to be, largely because of the intrusion of outside nationals coming into a somewhat sexually free culture. And I suppose taking advantage of poverty, in some ways. During the Viet Nam war, Thailand was used as a major R & R locale by US forces. It was a predictable progression, I suppose. As it (outside of the cities and tourist spots), does not carry the social stigma, there are girls who come south, earn some money (go with whomever they wish (cute boys only, no uggos or creeps!), return to their village and marry the boy next door.
This is what I learned after spending a lot of time there, from the locals. It’s hard for westerners to wrap their head around, that Puritan ethic runs deeper than we like to think.
Fellow Doper SiamSam linked me to this Stickman website, and though perhaps not as “factual” (along with case histories, lots of opinion and theory), if you want to get a feel for this ex-pat/bargirl scenario, read through some of these reader’s submissions: http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanReadersSubmissions.htm
If nothing else, it will give you a feel for the “why” the profession thrives over there with ex-pats.
Prostitution in Thailand. The situation is as complicated as string theory in physics, and there are no easy answers.
Much has been answered above. I can weigh in this much: It’s completely illegal and completely in the open. The police make a lot of money from it. For example, the after-hours freelancer pick-up joint on Sukhumvit Road, in operation since the Vietnam War but in its present location just 15 years, is owned by a group of senior police officials. Many bars are police-owned. The farang (Western) situation is just the tip of the iceberg. The girls who specialize in Thai, Japanese or Chinese men are the vast majority, and the way their scene is set up, it’s pretty hidden. Thai, Chinese and Japanese men all prefer lighter skin, and so the girls from the North are considered the most desirable. The dark-skinned Isaan, or Northeast, beauties are preferred by farangs but considered THE ugliest by the Thais, further proof to them that farangs are addle-minded.
Although prostitution almost certainly existed before, my understanding is the prostitution scene as it is known today really picked up with the influx of Chinese in the 19th century, who brought along their system of concubines. Sure, Siamese kings and such had multiple wives, but I don’t think it was such a widespread practice, right down to businessmen and below, until the advent of the Chinese. Even my own father-in-law, an ethnic Chinese businessman, left behind a second wife and a second family when he died 10 years ago, and the family thinks he might have had a third one squirreled away somewhere.
The prostitution scene as it’s known to the foreign press really picked up with the Vietnam War. The Patpong red-light area became popular with American GIs on R&R. That’s even where the CIA’s Air America offices were. At least one bar, Madrid Bar, still operating and serving some of the best pizza in town, was started by a CIA operative, and eventually one of the co-owners was the legendary Tony Poe, the real-life inspiration for Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. (You can read the history of the bar at the front of their food menu. And yes, they have girls for take-out.) We now have several farang-oriented red-light districts. I’m planning to stop by Soi Cowboy tonight to take in the (highly illegal) all-nude lesbian sex show. Just a normal weekend.
The prostitutes who are found “chained to their beds” and such – I think I’ve only heard of a couple such cases that extreme in all my years here – are the ones who service the lowest class of Thais, the dollar-a-day manual laborers and such. If there are any sex slaves here, it’s them. The ones servicing wealthier Thais and foreigners are their own free agents and make serious money. Really serious money. Unfortunately, they tend to blow it all on designer clothes and all-night card games (the girls love to gamble) and such. But they are often the sole support for their families upcountry, although they too tend to blow it all on modern appliances. It’s not unusual to come across a broken-down shack out in the middle of nowhere, but they have a new pickup and a satellite dish and a big flat-screen TV and a nice fridge; not difficult to guess what their daughter might be doing. Whole villages exist where there are only elderly and children, everyone else having migrated to the bright lights of the city, the girls sending their children back for the grandparents to raise, those children often being half-Thai, half-farang. As to what other Thais think of the prostitutes, it’s a mixed bag of reactions. Many are disapproving, many are not, almost all are tolerant.
I myself have known countless prostitutes over the years. Still do. In my salad days, I certainly did partake and with gusto. I was only in my 20s when I first arrived, and these aren’t crack whores. Believe it or not, they’re often very nice girls. But the scene gets old after a while – something I would never have believed as a West Texas teenager – and nowadays I’m older and settled. But I still hang out in the bars. I know bar owners. Many of the girls know me. Since I don’t partake, they don’t try to wheedle me, and we can have a nice chat. I hear some very interesting stories. They are certainly not slaves. They come and go as they please. Perhaps circumstances have forced some them into the business, but from my personal experience, most of them have quit their $100-a-month, 12-hour-a-day factory job for what is perceived as easy money. Some can’t take it and drop right back out. The ones doing drugs tend to burn out quickly. Many of the ones who stay often do become hardened over time, but not always. Most if not all of the Western stereotypes are completely false, and we get a lot of news crews through town with particular agendas, and it’s often to their own interest to portray the situation as sordid as possible.
I’ve mentioned this before elsewhere on the Board: My wife is a Thai government researcher, and back in the 1980s or 90s, she and her colleagues did a prostitute survey, the results of which were even mentioned in the Lonely Planet travel guide for a few issues. They counted 200,000 prostitutes in Thailand, I think that was the number – and not just counting them, but interviewing them for sociological data – but everyone, including my wife, believed that number to be grossly low of the true mark. But they had to come up with a number, and that’s what they found.
Also, I see above the fact that Laos used to belong to Thailand has oddly come into question. Well, technically true I guess, as it belonged to Siam and not “Thailand” per se. All of Laos and Cambodia was part of Siam until the French wheedled it away in the 19th century. Parts of northern-peninsular Malaysia went to the British at about the same time. All of this was under King Chulalongkorn V, who was the little boy in The King and I. He’s credited with keeping Thailand uncolonozed by the European powers, mainly by granting these land concessions, but the truth is the British and French felt it a good idea to keep a buffer between them. There was already enough trouble where their interests did meet, up where Burma touches Laos; the situation was fraught with peril in the more major areas. But under that king, Siam lost a full half of it’s territory, I believe it was.
Anyway, like I said, a very, very complicated situation. Much has been written on it. Some true, some false.
Thanks, Siam Sam. Fascinating stuff.
Are AIDS or other STDs a serious issue in Thailand? Do prostitutes there insist on condom use? (I’m not planning a trip, mind you, I’m just curious!) Also, do you think prostitution is any more widespread than in other SE Asian countries, or just more visible?
One more thing: It does tend to be a bit more widespread in Thailand. Ease of logistics. In Laos, although there still manages to be a small scene, it is actually illegal for a local girl to become romantically involved with a foreigner. Marrying one requires express permission from the government. Taking a girl to a room can get you a jail term and/or deported, whether she’s a prostitute or not. In Vietnam, it is strictly illegal to take a local girl of any type, prostitute or not, to your room; if you want to indulge, you actually have to pay for a second room for the girl, or else the hotel will turn you in. But of course, they still manage a scene too, especially in the South. Cambodia has prostitutes in the urban areas, but the disease issues seem to be multiplied exponentially. Due to the Muslim nature of some countries, the focus is on ethnic Chinese girls but still a quieter situation.
The only place that I’ve heard of that even comes close to Thailand is the Philippines, which I’ve never visited. Possibly a holdover fom the old US military presence, the bar areas still exist. In fact, I’ve heard some guys prefer Manila now, as they say the Thai prostitutes have become too mercenary.
It is a serious issue, but I have seen studies – which unfortunately I cannot cite at the moment – that show the higher “class” of the girl, the lower the disease prevalence. The girls who service the lowest dregs of society often have no say in hygiene or condom use. The girls in the bars tend to be better educated on the issues and more in command of their lives; they and the girls in the bars and parlors generally all insist on condoms, and disease rates are surprsingly low regardless of what some of the Western media want to think. The government has spear-headed a huge condom-promotion program in recent decades, led largely by the well-known Mechai Viravaidya. He is a popular television actor and has even served in the senate and government cabinets. His push for condom use, especially among the working girls, was so heavy that he is popularly know today as Mr. Condom. (He turns 70 next Monday. Happy Birthday, Mr. Comdom! :D)
It is not unknown for a girl to forgo a condom for a slightly extra fee, but in my opinion they are a very, very small minority. The vast majority of the girls insist on condoms and won’t go with a customer if he says he doesn’t want to use one. Massage parlors insist on it and provide them for free.
D’oh! I forgot to name it. Thermae coffee shop, coffee per se not what people go for there. I remember in Thermae’s old location, after hours you’d go enter through the back and have to walk past the smelly urinals, which sort of set the tone for the rest of the night, heh. Because of its strong police connections, it stayed open until daylight. But even they could not withstand the Purachai purge of about a decade ago – Purachai being the name of the cabinet minister who launched a morality crusade – and although today Thermae will usually still stay open an hour or so after legal closing time, gone are the days of hanging out until daylight. But other places have popped up to fill the void and accommodate you until sunrise, staying under the radar through heavy “donations” to their local constabulary.
Sam,
Are former or current prostitues seen as not relationship material?
Is it realistic to think one might be arrested for it? If it happens, is it just a police officer who wants a bribe?
You said you are going to a lesbian nude show. What does your wife think of it? What do wives tend to think of their husbands going to prostitutes or sex bars?
Is sex more broadly used as a currency? By which I mean; if a woman can’t pay rent or repairs, would it be out of line, as it is in the West, to suggest paying through sex?
As I’ve detailed elsewhere on the Board, the wife is perfectly fine with it. She’s even attended one with me once to see what all the fuss is about.
Thai prostitutes getting arrested. That’s a laugh. Although I guess it actually does happen once in a blue moon. Or every two or three blue moons. The chief of some particular police station may get orders from some higher official whose wife somehow encountered it face to face and was offended. Then they’ll make a half-hearted attempt to round up a handful of girls and let them off with a 20- or 30- buck fine. More often, the police are sponsoring prostitution.
In fact, there was one scam perpetrated by a cop and a 16-year-old girl one time. Underage prostitution has largely been cleaned up here, the authorities have done a commendable job, but not out of any sense of morality. They started to become worried about the country’s image. But for whatever reason, the pedophiles nowadays generally all go to Cambodia and give Thailand a miss. And good riddance to them! There’s still a problem with local pedophiles; the foreign press doesn’t care much about that, only about farang pedophiles, so not much has been done in that regard. But in any community, if there’s a guy causing a serious problem with that, the police will often just shoot the bastard and be done with it, usually to the general approval of everyone else.
But back to that scam. There’s a freelancer joint called the Beer Garden. A freelancer joint is where girls can go to look for customers, but they don’t work there. Technically, they’re customers too. They’ll order a glass of soda water or a beer and hang out. Well, they don’t let underage girls in. But there was this one 16-year-old one time who would hang around outside to pick guys up. She’d tell them she was 18 or 20. (Even a 30-year-old Thai lady often looks like she should be in high school.) When they got to the room, the guy would go take a shower, and she’d call her police boyfriend and tell him what room she was in. He’d bust in and shake the guy down for having an underage girl in the room, making him pay a hefty bribe. That pretty much sums up police and prostitutes. (So it’s often a good idea to check a girl’s ID if you’re picking one up off the street.)
As for relationship material, it’s a case-by-case basis. Many of the prostitutes are actually already married or in a relationship while they’re working. Sometimes the man knows it and is fine with lazing at home watching TV and living off her earnings. Sometimes the girl tells him she’s just a greeter or cashier or something, and it’s convenient for him to pretend she is. Sit at Big Dog, Morning Night or Lucky Luke’s bars, all near the entrance to the Nana Plaza red-light “shopping center” (unofficial motto: “Three Floors of Whores”), and you can see boyfriends dropping their girls off at work by motorcycle. The ones not in a relationship can often blend back into normal life, especially if they return upcountry to their village. Sometimes they can’t.
Many of the girls working in bars are looking for that golden ring, some customer who will take them out of the bar and back to their corner of farangland. It usually ends badly but not always. and it happens often enough to fuel hope among the other girls. There’s even another scam in which a girl will tell a guy who has ended up falling in love with her that he has to pay a big amount to the bar to release her. That is complete and utter bollocks. The girls come and go all the time. Keeping the girls from quitting and moving to another bar is one of the major headaches of a local bar owner. If a mamasan – the lady who manages the girls in a bar – is popular with her charges and quits to go to another bar, it’s not unusual for most of the girls to quit too and follow her. But the guy won’t know this if he’s fresh off the boat. (The record I personally know of between meeting a bargirl and marrying her is 36 hours.) It’s just a scam, often perpetrated without the bar owner’s knowledge. It could be the mamasan pulling it herself, and she’ll split the proceeds with the girl. Maybe it’s just the girl doing it herself. Or maybe the bar owner really is in on it. Depends.
In fact, just last month I advised a farang I met not to do this. He wanted to marry a bargirl in Lollipop Bar in Nana Plaza, but she told him he had to pay 10,000 baht to the bar. That’s US$329 at today’s exchange rate. He was pretty new here, and myself and several others strongly advised him against this. We told him not only is she lying through her teeth, but if she’s willing to help fleece him in this manner now, there’s no telling what she might get up to once they’re married. (As regular eaders of my posts on this Board already know, I know some horrendous stories.) I hope he listened to us. Haven’t run into him since. But he seemed to believe us.
A big problem in a lot of cases is what constitutes a prostitute. There are many part-timers who go to freelancer pick-up places or just down to lower Sukhumvit Road at night to make some extra bucks, especially toward the end of the month when rent is coming due, but they have normal day jobs. There seems to be an inordinate number of hairdressers in these ranks. I know of one guy who picked up a girl, only to have her leave his place early because she was an office manager or executive secretary and had to get to work. Many’s the time I’ve sat at a sidewalk bar at 3 or 4am and seen friends of some of the staff drop by to make a little extra cash. Quite a few university students do this, and they’re often looking for a regular “sponsor” to help with school costs. Many have normal jobs. They don’t really think of themselves as prostitutes. And many of the “naughty” massage parlors (there are legitimate ones) offer different levels of services; the ones that do hand jobs only often don’t think of themselves as prostitutes since that’s as far as they’ll go. Then there are some female tour guides who just suddenly offer to stay with you at the end of the day. She may not ask for money, but there’s an unspoken understanding that she’ll get a nice tip for her, er, “tour services,” heh.
The Internet has proven a big boon to Thai prostitution. There are a number of “dating sites” that hordes of young ladies have signed up to, and they’ll often list that they’re looking for a “short-term relationship.” Yeah, short term as in two or three hours. I understand that back in the 1950s, a particular prime minister ended up inadvertently popularizing the practice of “call girls” when it was revealed he used the telephone to make appointments with certain ladies, and there was a brief vogue of girls getting phones for this purpose; today it’s the Internet.
And as sordid as I know I’ve probably made it sound, it’s really not sordid at all. Just business as usual, a different world. I’ve probably also made it sound like all the girls here are on the make. That’s not true either. It’s a small minority, but it’s just the actual numbers are still large. But if you were to come here and just stick to the temples and such, you might never notice anything going on.
Fascinating, Sam, thank you! Are there a lot of fake ID’s out there, or are they generally reliable?
Thanks, Sam. You have seriously fought my ignorance in this matter!
What about the phenomenon of the “lady boys”? These are effeminate young men, who (after being heavily made up and sexily dressed) pass for woman in Thai bars. Is this a cultural thing? Do these men face discrimination for doing this? Or is it accepted by the culture?