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Colibri
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See PM.
We need to talk about these things. Ignorance is the root of all evil. Most people haven’t the slightest idea why they do the things they do and if they can be informed why perhaps they can make better choices or at least be not quite as upset about what happened or their response to what happened.
Ah, if only interpersonal communication and getting to the point were that simple. At least back in the 1980’s, it was all about appearing to be worn down so she didn’t appear to be “easy”. Nobody started with “please sign this affirmative consent form”. And in neither case was birth control involved.
As for a higher rate of conception with rape, did they control for the fact that a pregnancy with visible consequences is more likely to reported, or admitted to, that one that did not? I would think women who were raped and had a child as a result were more likely to admit to the rape to a random surveyor’s telephone call.
Dude, I was dating in the 1980s and it WAS that easy. Before engaging in foreplay you had a discussion about how far you were willing to go. If you wanted to have actual sex, you had a discussion about birth control and STDs, agreed, and then went for it.
What you are describing here is date rape. She says NO, you assume she’s playing a game and actually means YES. No, she meant NO. You put your hand somewhere, she moves it off-that means NO, you STOP.
It is true that women are more conflicted about sex than men which is why many men assume they are playing games.
Man: Horny. If he has sex, he has a 100% chance of being satisfied. There is a remote possibility she’ll get pregnant, but that’s really her problem. He’s not conflicted at all.
Woman: Horny. If she has sex, there’s a really good chance she won’t be satisfied because at least 2/3s of men are really bad/selfish in the sack. Regardless of how many precautions are taken, she could get pregnant, which will ruin her life. She has a much higher chance of catching an STD from a man than a man does of catching one from her, and the consequences of an STD in a women can be much more severe than in a man. And, something that men never think about, is if she sleeps with a man, her odds of being murdered or raped go up exponentially, because most violent attacks on women are committed by men they’ve had sex with.
So her body wants to but her mind doesn’t. And if she says NO in any way at any point you have to respect that. Trying to “wear her down” is rape behavior.
This is good, important information to be conveyed, but it’s also incomplete. I had a partner in college that was similar. She wanted sex, quite badly, but couldn’t bring herself to ask for it or verbally consent. She had to be pressured and “forced,” but would make herself very available, didn’t put up much “fight,” and would initiate things. It was always uncomfortable to me, and ultimately part of why our relationship fizzled out.
It left me with a skewed view of how people discussed sex and made me very uncomfortable approaching or initiating things with new partners for quite a while.
Not to say this is the norm, but just saying I’ve had an experience very similar to md2000 that was definitely not rape or non-consensual.
That experience is part of why I take consent, and education about consent, very seriously as an “adult.” It’s important for people to know that A) it’s very important to gain consent from a partner, and B) it’s very important to give consent clearly if you DO consent.
And C) it’s very important to deny consent clearly if you DO NOT consent.
Moving a hand away does not mean “NO”. It does not mean “I expect you to go home”. I have to wonder how limited someone’s life experience would have to be to come to believe that.
Moving a hand away does mean, “Not now”. Whether that ever becomes “Yes, now” is dependent on to many factors to elaborate on. But both women and men will move a hand away but continue with kissing, stroking hugging and other intimate interaction. For the vast majority of people, that’s not saying no. It’s saying “Wait”.
If you mean no, say no, and say it clearly an unambiguously. Communication is a two way street. If you want a discussion about how far you are willing to go, then start the discussion by stating that, clearly. If you want someone to stop and go home, then say that, clearly. At the very least get up and move away.
The idea that moving someone hand away and then continuing other intimate activities is a clear expression of “No, stop and go home” is just weird and not applicable to the real world.
While I agree with the last statement, the first has issues. Notably, the kind of guys who require the woman screaming “rape” and kicking at his nuts to decide maybe she really means “no”. The kind of guys who think drugging her or just getting her liquored up so she is basically incapacitated - passed out or groggy to the point of incoherence - is acceptable. The kind of guy who finds his friend sleeping on the couch and decides “she’s hot, why not?”
There is no consent in any of those situations, regardless of what lead up to it. The girl could be flirty and kissing while you ply her with high-octane beverages, but that doesn’t make her accepting you’re going to do her once she’s sloppy.
Note, there is a distinction between someone drinking for pleasure and getting a bit drunk, the high pleasurable state, and full out loss of control. It is important for everyone to learn the distinction and learn to recognize it, not just in self but in others. For the guy, know when she might have had too much to consent and she wakes up later and isn’t aware she seemed to be saying yes. For women, not only to protect self from getting sloppy, but to look out for friends who might drink more than they thought. And even the case where alcohol might fuel a normally considerate guy to be a lot less in control.
[QUOTE=Whynot]
Some rape is about power. Some rape is about a horny person who doesn’t give a shit if the other person wants to have sex or not. And some rape is about people who are raised to think that only repeated screams of “NO!” and attempts to claw one’s eyes out really means no, and that any more muted response means their victim “wanted it” and the sex was consensual.
[/QUOTE]
I definitely agree there are different motivations. Rape is, in its essence, an act of power over another, so it is certainly an element of the issue, and an important one to stress. But to ignore the sex part is just as irresponsible as to ignore the power part.
For the people who find their pleasure through the application of force, it is very much about the sex part, they need the power for the pleasure. But, some rapists want to punish some one as much as they want to enjoy pleasure. And there are folks that it’s less about making someone comply and more about not caring what the other person wants, just looking out for their own pleasure. The force is there, but it’s not critical to the rapist except as a method, not as an element of the experience.
To treat all rapes as monolithic is to fail to understand all the causes, and thereby find means to prevent them.
A: “My car won’t run.”
B: “It should work, you don’t have any flat tires.”
A: “I know that, but the engine won’t start.”
B: “Well, try changing the tires, maybe that will help.”
It’s like assuming all problems are nails, so only carrying a hammer in your tool kit.
Remove the sex drive from rapists then we’ll see how true this meme is. Of course rape is about sex, although other factors play into it.
Female orgasm can be physical, biological as well, why not? If the vagina becomes wet when penetration occurs (biological response), even during a rape, it is a step to orgasm, even if the woman doesn´t want it. There are cases where the rapist, by threat, obliges the woman to move her hips during the act. It can also facilitate the involuntary woman´s orgasm.
Anecdotally, this agrees with my own experiences. In my experience, women do not want to be labelled as “Sluts” both for the social disadvantages and because it leads to a poor self-image. The “slut-labelling” we see in western society today is far milder, and it takes more to trigger it than few decades ago.
My experience is that the more strongly stigmatized promiscuity among women is in a society, the more the courtship angles towards exonerating her from the slut label.