I thought china had trouble with the opium glut brought on by foreigners trading opium for silk. They realized it was ruining their society so they made a law making it a capital offense to sell opium. They had no court system really so if you were accused of being a dealer you were beheaded. In no time at all their dealers were eliminated so the traders had to find a replacement for opium.
question 1: Is that accurate history?
question 2: Would that work in the U.S. with opium and cocaine?
I think that the majority of people would think that execution for drug dealing is excessive. Never mind the fact that your idea still doesn’t address the real problem, and that is demand. Controlling the supply does nothing to reduce the demand. As long as people want something, there will be others who are willing to risk their lives to profit from it. BTW, there are still drugs in China and they still execute (publicly, IIRC) dealers.
The problem was only stamped out after the communists took over (1949). It has since come back with a vengeance, with a major heroin (and thus HIV) problem in the south (near the Thai/Burmese borders) and mass-production of ecstacy and other pills in cities.
This is out of date, and the data on # of addicts etc are likely to be lower than they should be…
http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1998_narc_report/major/China.html
Are you postulating this as a “good thing”? Win the War on Drugs at any cost?
Damn the civil liberties like a speedy trial by a jury of your peers, a prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment and the assumption of innocence until proven guilty…drugs are bad!
:rolleyes:
Fits nicely with your “poison the fields” theory…
jayjay (who’s about thisfar from a Pit thread about overreactors in general)
Justin, China lost the drug war. Britain fought and defeated them, thus gaining two important Asian ports–Hong Kong and Canton.
I suppose that executing anyone accused of dealing drugs would probably stem the flow of drugs rather nicely. So would simply killing everyone on earth ahead of time.
As for whether it’s a practical solution to the problem, it does run into a few Constitutional issues (off the top of my head, “cruel and unusual punishment” and “due process”), and would be supported by almost nobody. Also, it would result in something far worse than the problem it is supposed to solve. Plus, there would be rampant corruption, wholesale slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people, and probably still drug use with impunity by the elite few who manage to be above the law.
adam yax
Member
quote:
I think that the majority of people would think that execution for drug dealing is excessive. Never mind the fact that your idea still doesn’t address the real problem, and that is demand. __---------------
If the abilities of a government to catch and kill drug dealers outstrips (temporarily at least, say for 5-10 years) the number of people who are willing to risk death for drug dealing, so you have a large unmet demand, have has the government “reduced” the drug problem? The government would say so, but God knows what kind of horrendous secret police force and judicial system they would need to keep it up, but I wouldn’t want to live there. It’s got other, worse problems.
Answer #1 - Sort of. Those events did take place, but it was only part of the story. Threat of beheading and the banning of importation ( first decreed in 1729 ) did little to curtail smuggling. There were three different schools of thought on how to approach the problem. In 1839 the champions of total prohibition won and ended up “provoking” the first opium war. Not only did Britain win the opium wars, but usage never dropped off. Importation of opium only began dropping in 1893 as prices began to rise and halted in 1917 because domestic production had increased to the point where it was no longer necessary to import.
- Tamerlane
Hemlock, you keep beating me to the post.
Yep, war on drugs was won in China after the Chinese communists took over. Ditto with prostitution.
Unfortunately, there is a new war. With the economic liberalization and gradual opening since around 1980, drug use has been increasing. E seems to be quite popular with the young trendy set in the big cities. Not sure how widespread heroin is, but it is around. Generally the heroin is low grade and smoked, or high grade and exported. I’ve heard that hash and pot are available. IMHO drug use is no where near the level of the US, but it is rising and starting to be a problem.
There were more treaty ports than just Hong Kong and Canton. Xiamen, Shanghai, Tianjin, Qingdao (Tsingtao) to name just a few were also treaty ports and extra-territoriality granted.
I don’t think it is a general practice or policy any more to execute people publicly in China. Actually, I believe that went out of style decades ago, although it is possible in some places it is done. Never see it in the big cities.
I bring this up as an example of a country winning the drug war. The way I remember it was that they did stop the drug distribution so the price dropped on the import market, because the importers couldn’t get anybody to buy it and distribute. Then the limeys stepped in and basicly went to war to force them to allow distribution. strange part of history.
I am not suggesting that we follow the same tack in the US. I was just trying to find a single example of solving the problem.
as far as “cruel and unusual” , I cant think of anything cruel enough for someone caught selling drugs to kids. well maybe I could if I tried.
Any time the problem has been solved it has only been temporary. It may very well be that the desire for intoxication is a deeply ingrained human trait. I’m not saying that it doesn’t turn into a problem for some people, because clearly it does. However, people also have problems overdoing it with food and sex as well.
Do you support beheading anybody who sells cigarettes to minors? As was shown in your other “drug control” thread, alcohol and tobacco cause much more damage to society than do drugs.
justinh, what is your personal association with drugs? What is it that has happened that makes you think mass executions are a good idea?
I don’t know how old you are, but I would hazard a guess that a higher percentage of people you know do drugs than you would like to think.
I don’t think so. Lin Tse-hsu’s campaign began in 1839, when he seized 20,000 cases of opium ansd ordered the British merchants to decamp. This immediately provoked hostilities. Although British attacks didn’t become serious until reinforcements arrived in 1841, they started almost at once. To the best of my ( admittedly not encyclopedic on this subject ) knowledge, the efficacy of China’s anti-smuggling campaign never really had time to be tested. Certainly earlier bans in 1729, 1731, 1796, 1813, and 1814, had little effect.
- Tamerlane
adam yax,
I suggest fighting drugs because they are so dangerous. Yes, tobacco and alcohol is dangerous. but both can be detected easily and kids know it. they avoid both because of the dangers of getting caught. drugs dont seem to have that danger to kids. and both aren’t as addicting. I might be wrong here but I view cocaine and heroin as highly addictive. and I have known a lot of drug users in my life and met very few who are pot exclusive. So I consider pot as dangerous. I am not talking about some adult who lives on some farm and grows his own for cheap recreation. I mean it is dangerous for a 13 year old to start smoking pot. maybe I was with a strange group of kids but pot was just a stepping stone to better,cheaper,different highs. kids think of anything as rewards vs risk. I want to add as much risk to the drug equation. maybe you only scare away the sissies, 5% or 10%. thats better than zero percent.
and this legalizing thing is ridiculus. I buy cocaine at the store and my neighbors kids ingest a bit of it and die. that wouldnt happen? yes. now they take of sip of a beer or drag of a cig and they dont die. I cant see adding another substance that can kill an innocent child to the marketplace.
I don’t give a damn if some adult boob gets hooked on cocaine. if he was that weak then if cocaine wasn’t available he would have probably gone to alcohol. I do care about innocent children being tempted because their money is as good as an adults to a seller.
selling tobacco to a kid should be a felony. but not beheading. but selling cocaine/heroin/XTC/pot should. kids have a lot of challenges already and they deserve to be protected from drugs,alcohol,tobacco until they at least reach 21 or so.
BTW, the kids in danger here are not high school seniors but 5th graders. A lot of people think " jeeze I smoked grass in college, or my senoir year at High school and I could handle it". well the decision now is having to be made in 5th grade and junior high.
A couple more points - China did indeed have a court system, but it worked under a Confucian legal model where the judge had absolute discretion and the power of life and death. Though admittedly Qing China’s civil administration was being stretched thin as it failed to grow with the population.
As regards as to whether the ban of 1839 would have worked - I doubt it. It may have curtailed the trade somewhat for awhile, but given it’s immense profitability, smuggling would have continued ( remember it could always have traveled the much slower, but far more porous route overland through Tibet ). Many facets of Chinese society were involved in smuggling up to their eyeballs and the primary market was the same lower-level officials that would have been charged with regulating it.
And since I should probably venture an opinion on the other part of OP - I think it likely would not pass constituitional muster ( ‘Cruel and Unusual Punishment’ ) and I personally would find it morally repugnant. But YMMV, I suppose.
- Tamerlane
hmmmm… most drugs are as detectable or even moreso than alcohol and tobaco. If you think kids avoid either because of fear of getting caught you very naive. Simply not true. Actually though, this might interest you. Drugs are far easier for kids to get, cause drug dealer don’t check ID’s. Having alcohol and tobaco legally distributed actually makes it harder for a minor to get. Nicotine is much more addictive than cocaine… and probably about the same as heroin.
Your evaluations of the dangers are completely skewed. But, I would suggest you shouldn’t leave ANY beer, smokes, and especially prescripion medications laying around where your neighbor kids can pick them up.
Very close to right on this one. The one about if it wasn’t one it would be another is pretty much dead on the mark. But, as mentioned above, making stuff legal ends the black market. Pretty good way to keep it out of kids hands.
I would say 18, but ok…
Forgive me, but huh? Detected easily compared to what?
So kids know that there is no danger in getting caught with drugs? Sorry, but that makes no sense. I would like to find out where you get the idea that tobacco and alcohol aren’t as addictive as any other drug.
Ahh yes the good old “gateway drug” argument. This idea is still thrown around, yet if you think about it both tobacco and alcohol are the true gateways. Tobacco gets you used to smoking something and alcohol is usually the first experience that people have with intoxication.
So, by following this logic we should shut down Proctor & Gamble and Johnson & Johnson. Lord knows that they make so many products that are able to kill innocents, in fact you probably already have many of these in your own home.
What are you talking about? Of course you care. If you didn’t care you would not have started a thread suggesting that illegal drugs be poisoned.
So, if I read this correctly you are only concerned by the fact that cocaine is illegal and alcohol is legal. What happens to your postition if cocaine were legal?
I’ll ask for the same thing that others have asked for, namely anything that shows that tobacco or alcohol is less dangerous than any other drug. The fact that something is legal doesn’t make it safer than something that is illegal.
When I was about 13 I had my first experience with both pot and cigarettes. Now, here I am at 34 and I still enjoy smoking some pot every now and then, and I wish to hell that I never tried tobacco.
Yeah, I have to agree here. I rarely smoke pot, but I sure wish I would have never picked up cigarettes. Ugh.
Yeah, I have to agree here. I rarely smoke pot, but I sure wish I would have never picked up cigarettes. Ugh.
adam yax,
I mean detectable in that the kids cannot sneak around smelling of tobacco or alcohol as easily. And I mean getting caught after using them.
the old gateway theory might not hold up statistically but it is what I have observed.
scotth,
the difference between a hit of crack laying around and a cigarette is substantial. if a 13 year old grabs it.
the difference in taking a prescription medication is it would be in a medicine cabinet hopefully and a 13 year old wouldnt grab a pill and think “great blood thinners”. also the legal crack would be attractively packaged so it would not appear to be a prescription.
folks,
alcohol and tobacco are bad. cant think of a positive aspect except for the producers. and the taxes dont pay for the damaged caused. but they are legal and would be just about impossible to stop.
now just because we have them in our society do we allow other bad things in? I would think not. I know of 2 families destroyed by addictions lately (1 alcohol and 1 crack). now does that argue for legalizing crack? no.
do we do whatever we can to at least keep them away from 13 year olds? yes, laws can affect the alcohol and tobacco selling to minors and I would hope that laws can affect the selling of drugs to minors also.
adam,
I am sorry that you were exposed to such drugs at 13. are you?
Are you nuts… pot is EASY to smell on a person from a mile away, besides the obvious change in behavior. Much easier to get caught on that. Coke, I guess would be kinda easy to get away with. LSD would be pretty difficult to face a parent on without them immediately know something was up.
I can’t even make sense of this. I would suggest you control crack position as well as prescription meds. And, I would have to say there is no tellin’ what kid would make of a bottle of blood thinners. We he/she recognize it as blood thinners?