How did the Russians meddle in our election?

It is quite clear that Russia engaged in a state-sponsored propaganda campaign during the 2016 election cycle. While you cannot tie any particular piece of Russian propaganda to any particular changed vote, if propaganda did not influence elections then we would not have so much domestically generated propaganda around elections. There has always been a very high correlation between the amount a candidate spends relative to the opponent and the success of that candidate. If there weren’t, there wouldn’t be so damned many campaign ads. Politicians wouldn’t spend a majority of their time raising funds for their next campaign.

Any argument that a propaganda campaign cannot influence the outcome of an election is specious.

Actually, the Russians spent over $1.25 million, not $100,000, and that’s simply on ads. It doesn’t include the social media presence that doesn’t cost money. There’s no way to measure the impact of Russian interference on the election, but that isn’t the point. The point is that a foreign power actively sought to interfere with and influence a U.S. election. If it had helped Hillary Clinton and hurt Donald Trump, it would be every bit as much a concern. If it didn’t affect a single voter, it would still be as much a concern.

There is some indication that the Russians did manage to hack into the voter database in many states. With this, they could eliminate from the registered voter list people they didn’t want voting. (But it might be tough to distinguish this from efforts by Republicans to purge Democratic-leaning voters from the lists.)

Here in Minnesota, there were specific hacking attempts identified by the Secretary of State, but they managed to stop them. Though it wouldn’t matter much here in Minnesota, because we have same-day election registration. (And the highest voter turnout in the nation – not a coincidence.) But in many states, if your name was deleted from the list, when you get to the polls on election day, you won’t be able to vote. That can be just as effective as hacking the vote-counting machines.

I’ve asked this question before.

Here it is again:

Imagine that the Clinton campaign is approached in September 2016 by five Mexican nationals who are illegally present in the country. They reveal that they have been working at Mar-a-Lago Golf Club “under the table,” for less than minimum wage, paid in cash, and threatened with deportation if they complained. They want to provide the Clinton campaign with any assistance it needs to tell this story: interviews, video of a Mar-a-Lago manager paying them/threatening them, etc.

Does the Clinton campaign’s decision to accept this offer mean a crime was committed involving foreign meddling?

In what way, in relation to adhering to Enemies and giving them Aid and Comfort?

Or as some foreign campaign donation?

Do you have any links on case law related to a bar for actions by a “agent of a foreign principal”?

If you ask in a form that is less leading we will probably answer it.

You’re right, that’s exactly the same as asking Russia to commit espionage on Trump’s behalf. I’ve never thought of it like that before. Gee golly** Bricker,** you sure won this one!

New hypothetical question:

Elin Suleymanov, the ambassador from the Azerbaijan Republic to the United States, writes the following letter to the Washington Post editorial page, on September 20, 2016:

"I respectfully urge all United States citizens to consider carefully their choice for President next month. The Azerbaijan Republic strongly believes that a weak, ineffectual president in the White House will destabilize the world stage. Mrs. Clinton’s terrible performance as Secretary of State and her vacillating on key world issues will make the United States lose influence it desperately needs. Donald Trump’s forceful and direct leadership will serve as a needed bridge to the countries that fear lawless strongmen will topple their democratically elected governments.

“When you vote, citizens of the US, vote for strong leadership that will calm the simmering pot of world tensions. Vote Trump.”

The Post publishes the letter.

Is any of that a crime?

That’s not an answer.

If we’re discussing armed bank robbery, and I ask if a kid wielding a pen knife stealing the cash box from a lemonade stand is a crime, you might equally well respond in identical sarcastic tones, “You’re right, a lemonade stand with eight dollars and forty-four cents exactly the same as a bank with thousands of dollars, and a pen knife is exactly the same as a semi-automatic rifle!”

But of course – that wasn’t the question. I’m not asking if they are exactly the same – I’m asking if each describes a crime.

So to help you understand: yes, the pen knife-assisted theft of the lemonade stand cash box is also a crime.

Now, with that guidance, can you handle the original question?

I don’t understand the “in what way?”

I have no links. I’m asking if the actions I describe are, to your understanding, any kind of crime.

That’s not a leading question, and even if it were, what of it? Why are you unable to answer a leading question?

Yes, and the comparison of the comparison of two armed robberies is the same as the previous comparison you made!

Yes, I can’t wait to discuss all the things with you in bad faith!

As you are the one who has passed the bar, how about quitting the rhetoric game.

I doubt it will go forward but remember that Trump asked Russia to commit computer fraud and they assembled a body of men and spent large amounts of money to do so. Would that possibly count as the following?

It’s not a game.

I’m trying to illustrate the contradiction in the position you seem to be suggesting: that foreign assistance directed to benefit one candidate in a US election is per se illegal.

(color added for emphasis by me)

No. For several reasons, but the easiest type type is: because “enemy” is not “Russia.”

Why? Because “enemy,” is “a foreign power in open declared war with the United States.”

Now, see that? You asked a question, and I answered it.

Can you answer my questions now?

Neither of my comparisons are in bad faith. Both question illustrate important principles necessary to determine the existence of a crime.

Can you answer my questions now?

They must be terrifying.

I believe that the purpose of GQ is to inform, not to lead people into a Q&A session…

Here are a variety of, possibly, relevant laws and court cases.

Which are relevant will obviously depend on your view of the matter.

As other posters have noted, I was just playing the same game but can you provide the articles of war related to this indictment for treason?

https://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/2006/October/06_nsd_695.html

Obviously a U.S. Citizen can be at least indicted on Treason for providing aid and comfort absent an official act of war.

Can you justify the exception in that case while ignoring Casus Foederis in Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty related to Russia’s use of chemical weapons on UK soil? Is the attack against a NATO state in defiance of the Chemical Weapons Convention not an illegal act of aggression?

While prosecution is difficult, I don’t think this is as cut and dry as you claim.

[Moderator Note]

This is GQ, not Great Debates. If you want to debate this question, start a new thread in GD. Otherwise comments should be addressed to the specific question in the OP.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

  1. They appear to have provided assistance to the Trump campaign in the form of Facebook postings, Twitter tweets, and similar social media content that favored Ztrump or disfavored Clinton. They also are alleged to have directly contacted Trump campaign staff with offers of helpful negative information on Clinton. Finally, they are alleged to have obtained negative information about the Clinton campaign and released it via Wikileaks, to the benefit of the Trump campaign.

  2. I’m a bit fuzzier on that one, but I think the answer is: the above-mentioned contact with Trump campaign staff is the “collusion,” that is most often mentioned.

The Authorization for Use of Military Force, Public Law 107-40, 115 Stat. 224.

The word “war,” is not necessary. The declaration by the Congress is necesssry.

“Illegal,” meaning what? Punching my neighbor in the nose is an illegal act of aggression. The relevant question is: under US law, does that trigger a state of war?

Answer: no.

You are mistaken.

While I don’t know if Russia can be classified as an “enemy” nation, it is pretty indisputable that they are a hostile one.

For the purposes of criminal law, you say it’s indisputable?

Criminal law is not enforceable if it relies on standards that are vague. Criminal law must give a person clear and unambiguous notice of what conduct is prohibited. Criminal laws that fail to provide this specificity are constitutionally infirm.

With that in mind, I do not agree that in a criminal law context, it is factually accurate to aver that it is “indisputable.”

But if the comment is not relevant to criminal law, and is simply a matter of opinion, then I don’t disagree.