How do I hate MC? Let me count the ways . . .

The BBQ Pit
1

Courtesy of this thread, we have been exposed to some . . . rather interesting notions. For example:

“My point was what would invariably happen sooner or later, [a gay scoutmaster would molest a boy while both were on a trip]”

So here we have the implication that a gay scoutmaster would go molesting boys.

“I very much doubt that normal boys would be very accepting of either gay leaders or scouts, and I’d also bet that many boys’ parents wouldn’t like it that much, either.”

And here we have the idea that only an abnormal boy or his parents would be accepting of either a gay leader or scout. But of course, according to his information (for which he never provided a cite, of course), they shouldn’t be.

“My point was, there is an assumption of predleiction that a gay person would make sexual advances towards a member of their own sex.”

There’s also an assumption in one tribe (Yanomamo, I believe, though I may have the spelling wrong) that if you let your baby walk into the forest s/he will be eaten by spirits there. Does that make it true?

When you assume, you make an ass out of you and . . . well, actually, just you in this case.

“We could start the Ghetto Gang Scouts with real gang members as leaders, and give merit badges in things like Crack, Pimping and Graffiti but you’re not likely to see many suburban parents jumping to enroll their sons because the subject is things they’d rather not have their kids get involved in at all.”

Here we have homosexual men being compared to people who smoke crack and pimp. No evidence of why this is an applicable comparison or even any valid cite of something bad that all homosexuals do.

After being questioned by pldennison (whose words are italicized below), MC (bolded) respond thus:

“There’s lots of gay Dopers here, MC. You want to ask how many of them are interested in 12-year-old boys, or are you afraid of looking more foolish than you already do?”
There’s also probably Dopers who use hard drugs–maybe even heroin. How much quality time would you want them spending around your kids?

Here we have the implication that being gay is equatable to being a drug user. Not a very inspiring or promising comparison, but plenty insulting.

Rather than waste more of my time with you, I’m going to re-post Ogre’s latest post in that thread and ask for some . . . clarification:

"You have:

  1. implied that homosexuality equals pedophilia,

  2. labeled homosexuals’ fight for equal rights “leftist grandstanding,”

  3. equated homosexuality with the use of hard drugs (for the False Analogy of the Year Award, I might add.)"

So what do you have to say for yourself, MC?

[fixed the link-Czarcasm]

[Edited by Czarcasm on 08-14-2001 at 01:17 AM]

2

If homosexuality implies an interest in young boys, then by this argument, heterosexuality implies an interest in young girls?

I think that says a lot about what’s going through the minds of the gay-bashers.

3

Well, the basic theory is that “a person who is attracted to males would be more likely to act innappropriately with YOUNG males”. Therefore (using this way of twisted thinking), a gay scoutmaster is more likely to molest the kids than a straight one.

The flaw in that thinking, however, is that “child molester” and “homosexual” are two completely different categories of people. Child molesters get off on - surprise! - molesting children. Generally, it doesn’t matter what gender the child is.

Basically, the Boy Scouts should focus more on preventing child molesters from becoming scout leaders.

4

The dumbest part of all this, pun, is that MC will dance around his points but doesn’t have the courage to come right out and state them. He’s either stupid, or a coward, or both.

5

Yup, Phil . . . it does get incredibly annoying. And he’s yet to show up to his own Pit Party.

I wonder if someone needs to show him this thread . . .

6

The flaw is that it’s wrong? Ooh, there’s a pursuasive argument. I really don’t see how logical fallacies, even in the service of a worthy goal, are a good thing. It certainly is reasonable to suppose that homosexual men will be more likely than heterosexual men to abuse boys. The unreasonable part is going from “most abusers are homosexual” which is a reasonable assumption (note I didn’t say it’s true, just a reasonable assumption), to “most homosexuals are abusers” which is ridiculous.

7

Maybe he just hasn’t been in here because the title says “MC”. One might think you were flaming MC Hammer…and dude, I just can’t agree with that. Parachute pants are waaaaay too cool.

8

Around these parts, “most abusers are homosexual” goes as an unreasonable assumtpion unless it’s backed up by FACT.

You know what? There are no such facts. In other words, it’s complete bull, and using it as an argument in a debate will get you roasted on the Straight Dope. And rightly so.

snif
It’s time we get a Straight Dope Anthem, dammit.

9

MC Hammer: “Too Legit to Quit”

10

Yes, yes, I see the writing on the wall now. And I know what we must do!

Boy Scouts should only allow lesbian women to be scout masters - there are very few lesbian women who are tempted by young boys, therefore the boys will only be safe if we have exclusively lesbian scout masters! Everybody happy with this one?
Makes sence, right MC? :rolleyes:

What a buffoon.

11

First, I would like to thank the fine folks at the straight dope for hosting us, and I would like to thank iampunha for starting this thread.

MC you are an ass.

I take that back, an ass has more brains than you. An ass is less tedious than you. An ass can be forgiven for its braying, because it has no other way of communication, you on the other hand communicate in plain English yet make less sense than an ass. An ass cannot stick its head up past its rectal sphincter, yet that is exactly what you seem to have done. And, an ass probably smells better than you do.

I doubt that anyone will get through to you, either will logic or with ranting (even though the ranting is much more fun), but possibly, someday, you will understand that just because someone is gay, it does not make them less of a person than a heterosexual.
Jeeves

12

I can understand MC’s concerns.

When I was a kid I encountered three adults whom I knew were gay. Each made moves on me. I am not making this up. None forced themselves on me, and therefore none succeeded (thank God). But I’ll never forget it.

I never had an adult heterosexual make a move on me.

I’m not saying that all adult homosexuals are child molesters, and I don?t think that’s what MC is saying either. But what are the chances that an adult homosexual will make a move on a juvenile when given the chance? 1%? 3%? Has there ever been a study? (I’ll see if I can find some numbers.)

Let’s say it is 2%. Are you willing to take that chance? If there was a 2% chance that feeding your son Vitamin A pills will paralyze him, would you do it?

In case you think I’m gay-bashing, consider this: By the same token, I wouldn’t want a male to lead a Girl Scouts troop. I have two daughters, and to me, the risk wouldn’t be worth it.

We certainly can’t eliminate all risks from our children’s lives. But when it’s easy to make a 2% risk a 0% risk, then I’m all for it.

13

Crafter_Man forgot to mention that all men are inherently rapists. [Insert rollie eyes here, SVP]

This argument is so stupid, I can’t even refute it. I was going to point out that the VAST majority of pedophiles are “straight”, and that attraction to the same sex doesn’t predispose a person to ANYTHING, other than perhaps gettin’ it on with a (consenting!) member of the same sex, but then I realized I would be wasting my breath.
Al.

14

However, there is no evidence that the chances are any higher for homosexuals than for heterosexuals. And hiding children from all adults is not really an option.

Several child molesters have been married men. Child molestation is independent of what sexual preference the person exhibits in public, or even generally identifies with. The type of person that molests children is not interested as much in their gender as in their youth.

With the Boy Scout case, it’s a bit different, as the older scouts are old enough that they would attract some homosexuals. And heterosexual women as well. However, the Boy Scouts have other policies designed to prevent the chance of anyone being molested by any leader.

In any event, the Boy Scouts do not discriminate against homosexuals because of concerns about molestation. I have never heard of them claiming this, and the cases that do occur have not been prevented by the ban. I have never seen any study that would show that the several organizations that do allow homosexual men to be youth leaders have any higher rates of molestation cases than the Boy Scouts. If you anyone could produce such figures, I’d be quite interested.

15

Stop it. NOW. Jesus, woman, what the hell are you trying to achieve here? Return of the Baggy Trousered Pseudo-Rappers, Part III?

16

If there was a 2% chance that feeding your son anything will paralyze him, would you starve him to death?

17

As a teenager I found out about my heterosexual grandfather, who molested (raped, abused, in some cases crippled, etc.) all ten of his legitimate children (his one illegitimate child was too far away to fall prey) and allowed his heterosexual mother-in-law to do the same.

I’m not saying that all adult heterosexuals are child molesters, and I don’t think that’s what anybody is saying either. But what are the chances that an adult heterosexual will make a move on a juvenile when given the chance? 2%? 5%? Has there ever been a study?

Let’s say it is 2%. Are you willing to take that chance?

Do you see the big core problem with your argument, CM?

You cannot possibly keep every homosexual in this world away from your son. You couldn’t if you kept him isolated in a booth for ten years? Why? Because (much) more likely than not he has already met at least one.

18

O.K., but what evidence do you have?

As far as I can tell, the PC crowd repeats over and over, “Homosexuals are not more inclined to molest children sexually than heterosexuals.” And they leave it at that. And we’re all supposed to walk away without questioning it.

So I did a little digging. I tried to stay away from conservative-biased sources such as the Family Reseach Council, because I think a lot of their stuff is suspect. But I did find this:

The 1948 Kinsey survey found that 37% of the gays and 2% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-17-yr-olds, and 28% of the gays and 1% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-16-yr-olds while they themselves were aged 18 or older. Gebhard PH & Johnson AB The Kinsey Data: Marginal Tabulations of Interviews conducted by the Institute for Sex Research, 1963

In 1970 the Kinsey Institute interviewed 565 white gays in San Francisco: 25% of them admitted to having had sex with boys aged 16 or younger while they themselves were at least 21. Bell AP & Weinberg MS Homosexualities: A study of diversity among men and women, NY Simon & Schuster, 1978

Drs Freund and Heasman of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34% and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual. In cases they had personally handled, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their 457 pedophiles. Freund et al Pedophilia and heterosexuality vs. homosexuality, Sex and Marital Therapy, 1984

In France, 129 convicted gays (average age 34 years) said they had had sexual contact with a total of 11,007 boys (an average of 85 different boys per man). Abel et al reported similarly that men who molested girls outside their family had averaged 20 victims each; those who molested boys averaged 150 victims each. Schofield M Sociological aspects of homosexuality Boston: Little Brown, 1965

Of the approximately 100 child molesters in 1991 at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third bisexual and a third homosexual in orientation. Dr. Raymond A. Knight, Differential prevalence of personality disorders in rapists and child molesters, Eastern Psychological Assn Convention, New York, 4/12/91

A state-wide survey of 161 Vermont adolescents who committed sex offenses in 1984 found that 35 (22%) were homosexual. Wasserman J et al Adolescent Sex Offenders, American Medical Assn 1986;255:181-2

Of the 91 molesters of non-related children at Canada’s Kingston Sexual Behaviour Clinic from 1978-1984, 38 (42%) engaged in homosexuality. Marshal WL et al Early onset and deviant sexuality in child molesters. Interpersonal violence 1991;6:323-336

Of 52 child molesters in Ottawa from 1983 to 1985, 31 (60%) were homosexual. Bradford et al The heterogeneity/homogeneity of pedophilia Psychiatry, University of Ottawa 1988;13:217-226

(And there are numerous studies concluding the percentage of homosexuals in the general population to be 1% to 3%.)

So I am to believe the Kinsey report is fraudulent? And that Drs Freund and Heasman are “gay bashers”? Perhaps Dr. Wasserman is a homophobe.

The response to this post will be very predictable… I’m a gay basher, I’m a homophobe, those reports are misleading, they’re biased, blaa blaa blaa. Whatever. Please present evidence to the contrary.

Look, it’s really quit simple: If you want your son to spend a week in the woods with a gay adult male, go for it. I’m not doing it.

19

No, I really don’t see a problem with my position at all.

Look, there is always risk; it’s simply a matter of degree.

There is such a think as reasonable risk and unreasonable risk. (I can’t believe I’m explaining this to an adult.) The former includes allowing your children to spend the night w/ a “normal” grandma and grandpa, allowing a teenage girl down the street to babysit, etc. Again, these aren’t 0% risks, they’re reasonable risks. The latter includes allowing your son to spend a week in the woods with an adult male homosexual, or allowing your 10 y.o. daughter to spend time with a male stranger. Again, these are unreasonable risk IMHO.

And who gets to determine what is reasonable and unreasonable? I do; I’m the parent. And if you don’t like it, you can put it where the monkey puts his nuts. (My favorite line from Rock-n-Roll High School.)

20

Crafter, as a parent you’re free to dub all black people an unacceptable risk as babysitters for that matter. Doesn’t really make you look that much nobler, does it.

And this comparison:
- “allowing your son to spend a week in the woods with an adult male homosexual, or allowing your 10 y.o. daughter to spend time with a male stranger” -
is retarded, at best.
The adult male homosexual, I’m assuming from your comparison, would not be a “stranger.” Presumably, any half-way intelligent parent would do everything they could to keep their children from spending time with strangers, period. Gender and sexuality don’t enter into it.

Comparing someone whose motives you know absloutely nothing about (the stranger) to someone whose only flaw in your eyes is he/she is attracted to the members of the same sex (the homosexual), shines a glaring light on your prejudice.