I’m still having a problem with the logic used. I understand that the debate is over homosexual scout leaders, but if, according to the cites given, about a third of child molesters a homosexual, then two thirds are not. This means that, the likelyhood of any scout leader being a child molester is greater if he is staight than if he is not.
I know my logic is flawed, but somehow this makes sense to me.
Please set me straight (no pun inteneded)
No. Yes, but cannot get there easily or quickly.
So, please, a simple yes or no:
IS the study you cited above available online, Crafter?
Alright, Crafter_Man. Here’s a different approach. I’m going to go through this logic step by step.
Now, you said yourself:
Now, this, to me, seems that you did not actually go to the library to check out the studies. Am I correct, in assuming that you did not borrow the actual, complete studies, in their entirety?
If so, that leaves two possibilities.
One, that you borrowed a book of studies on the subject, which held a number of the excerpts that you use. If this is the case, please tell us the name and author of the book, since the burden of proof is on you.
And two, that you got the excerpts off of a web site.
You give a pretty good idea of which case it is, though, when you say this:
Now, once again, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this mean that you found the info on the internet? If so, then things are infinitely easier for both us and you. All you have to do is post links to the sites where you located the information, so that we can go and find it much easier, and believe you all the quicker. And in case you can’t remember the urls of the sites, you can at least post which search engine you used, along with the terms that you searched under, so that we can do our own search and believe you.
You seem awfully hesitant to prove that your sources are legit. I don’t see why, since it would make this whole “debating” thing much easier. This is not a knee-jerk reaction, this a response to the words that you yourself wrote.
WEW, I’m a bit confused myself, but I think it boils down like this:
Homosexuals, according to the study, account for one third of child molesters, but also account for only %1-%3 of the general population. Therefore, a very small group of people is doing a very large amount of the molesting. That’s the logic, at least. Whether the cite is legit or not has yet to be answered by Crafter_Man.
WEW: reread pldennison’s post above. The logic is:
- Homosexuals make up 3-10% of the general population.
- If there is no connection between molestation and homosexuality, one would expect 3-10% of molesters to be homosexual (i.e., the same as the percentage in the general population)
- However, according to the cite above, 32%-34% of offenders against children were homosexual.
- Therefore, homosexuals molest children at a rate above that of heterosexuals.
However, as Anthracite at least has pointed out, it would be nice to see how this study was performed to look for confounding factors. For example: How was homosexuality defined (was it defined as “molesting boys”)? Are heterosexuals more likely to get away with molestation (they’re likely to molest their own children), and thus are under-represented? In cases where the age gap is small (say 18 versus 16), are homosexuals more likely to be prosecuted for molestation?
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- I compared being gay to other behaviors commonly percieved by many people as undesirable. Sorry, it’s true, and not just by me. If not wanting your kids around gays is prejudice, then not wanting your kids around heroin addicts is prejudice too - but it’s a form that most “normal” (-there’s that word again…) people agree on is “acceptable”, and having a prejudice doesn’t necessarily extend to conducting fence-tyings or lynchings.
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- People have been banned from the board for racially hostile posts, and I have been around since it was on AOL, and I’m still here. I can’t ever recall claiming that any racial or ethnic group was any better than any other, but I am not afraid to discuss differences I have observed. That unnerves a lot of people who mistake it for hostility, but I have found that many of my observations were typical but some weren’t. If I’d never posted them, I never would have known. Everybody has prejudices; some of use are just more honest about them.
- Repeat: (Concerning the other thread) “This isn’t about truth and justice, it’s about lawyers and juries.” - MC
It’s not the same. Heroin has been proven to be dangerous if not deadly and I would not want my child to become a heroin user. Homosexuality in and of itself is not dangerous or deadly, it is a sexual preference and I would not mind if my child was around one.
jarbaby
Look, it’s obvious that Crafter didn’t come up with those studies himself, he got them from a third party. He probably found a website specializing in proving that homosexuals molest children at higher than average rates and cut and pasted their reference page. He has no idea if the references are legit or not.
Blacks make up a small part of our population, yet a majority of death row prisoners are black. Clearly, blacks should be barred from being Scoutmasters because they will murder our children.
I may have found where Crafter got at least some of his stats. From this page:
http://www.yankeesamizdat.org/items/ChildMoles.html
On this site:
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Every post you submit on this topic reveals you to be an ignorant bigot. End of argument as far as I’m concerned. There’s nothing I, or anyone, can say, to change your admitted prejudices, so we can only reiterate the contempt in which we hold you. Have a nice life.
Yikes a moly. The understatement of the year award goes to Crafter calling that site “conservative”, if that is indeed where he got the info.
jarbaby
Wow. Catholic fundies. Now there’s something ya don’t see every day.
I found the site:
http://familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet2.html
Not surprisingly, the stats were compiled by a conservative organization. (Who else would compile stats like this?) This is why (as I stated in my previous post) I chose not to copy and paste the more questionable stats, such as surveys. Of course, it is possible they are fabricated, but a reasonable assumption is that they are not. Perhaps I will get copies next time I’m in our university library.
Crafter, once again I issue you the understatement of the year award. That site is not only ‘conservative’ but it is ‘anti-gay’.
They claim that the main goal of the gay rights movement is ‘trying to legitimize child-adult sex’ for God’s sake.
jarbaby
The “Marshall WL” cited here is Dr. Bill Marshall of Queen’s University, a family friend and a scientist of the most impeccable credentials and integrity. He is a noted expert in the field of deviant sexuality. I assure you that if anyone knows the answer to this debate, Bill does.
I have sent him the following E-mail;
Bill;
Hope things are going well. (personal matters deleted)
I was wondering if you could do me a small favour. I am currently following a fairly lively debate on a famed Internet discussion board, “The Straight Dope” (www.straightdope.com). The topic of this debate is pedophiliac behaviour and its relationship, if any, to homosexual sexual preference in adults. The question, as you have probably already guessed, is this; Do homosexual adults, defined as “homosexual” in terms of their attraction to other adults, have a higher incidence of pedophile-type behaviour than heterosexuals?
A number of studies have been cited to suggest that, in fact, homosexuals are disproportionately likely to be pedophiles; the studies cited would suggest that homosexuals comprise 20-30% of pedophiles, whereas they do not constitute anywhere near that much of the population as a whole. One of the studies cited was attributed to you, cited as such:
*Of the 91 molesters of non-related children at Canada’s Kingston Sexual Behaviour Clinic from 1978-1984, 38 (42%) engaged in homosexuality. Marshal WL et al Early onset and deviant sexuality in child molesters. Interpersonal violence 1991;6:323-336 *
This doesn’t say a whole lot, of course - perhaps the subjects engaged in homosexual behaviour after being imprisoned, and that fact has been edited out. Anyway, I informed the group that I knew you and would ask you for some general clarification around this issue;
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What did your study actually say, in brief, about the connection between homosexuality and pedophilia?
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Based on the evidence to date, is there a positive correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia?
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What else can you tell us that will enlighten us about this issue?
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What studies or researchers could be look up that would shed some light on the subject?
Bill, I should point out that this debate is being conducted in the best traditions of intellectual curiosity. No screaming matches here!
Thanks for your help,
Rick
PS. Some other studies cited were listed as follows:
The 1948 Kinsey survey found that 37% of the gays and 2% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-17-yr-olds, and 28% of the gays and 1% of the lesbians admitted to sexual relations with under-16-yr-olds while they themselves were aged 18 or older. Gebhard PH & Johnson AB The Kinsey Data: Marginal Tabulations of Interviews conducted by the Institute for Sex Research, 1963
In 1970 the Kinsey Institute interviewed 565 white gays in San Francisco: 25% of them admitted to having had sex with boys aged 16 or younger while they themselves were at least 21. Bell AP & Weinberg MS Homosexualities: A study of diversity among men and women, NY Simon & Schuster, 1978
Drs Freund and Heasman of the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34% and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual. In cases they had personally handled, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their 457 pedophiles. Freund et al Pedophilia and heterosexuality vs. homosexuality, Sex and Marital Therapy, 1984
In France, 129 convicted gays (average age 34 years) said they had had sexual contact with a total of 11,007 boys (an average of 85 different boys per man). Abel et al reported similarly that men who molested girls outside their family had averaged 20 victims each; those who molested boys averaged 150 victims each. Schofield M Sociological aspects of homosexuality Boston: Little Brown, 1965
Of the approximately 100 child molesters in 1991 at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third bisexual and a third homosexual in orientation. Dr. Raymond A. Knight, Differential prevalence of personality disorders in rapists and child molesters, Eastern Psychological Assn Convention, New York, 4/12/91
A state-wide survey of 161 Vermont adolescents who committed sex offenses in 1984 found that 35 (22%) were homosexual. Wasserman J et al Adolescent Sex Offenders, American Medical Assn 1986;255:181-2
Of 52 child molesters in Ottawa from 1983 to 1985, 31 (60%) were homosexual. Bradford et al The heterogeneity/homogeneity of pedophilia Psychiatry, University of Ottawa 1988;13:217-226
Since it’s summer, he may not respond right away.
thanks for the work RickJay! I look forward to the response!
jarbaby
RickJ, you are the fucking man. I await any responses from your friend eagerly.
I cannot begin to detail the apparantly deliberate logical and syntactic errors on that site, CrafterMan, let alone the gaping, tattered-edged holes in what they portray as “science.” There is no disguising their agenda, and no disguising the fact that said agenda colors every sentence on the site. This FRI is a poster child for misrepresentation of fact and blinding ignorance of the scientific process, not to mention of research and publication methods. They are, in sum, actively encouraging ignorance, and I will have no part of them.
So based on your logic, I should immediately discount every and any statistic quoted by Greenpeace, PETA, HCI et al, simply because they’re liberal? I should discount the message because I dislike the messenger?
Indeed, andros. I especially like their Biblical Approach to Misguided Compassion. (By Dr. Kirk Cameron, no less.)