I like how they count Obamacare as teh Evulz. You should maybe ask them why, then point and laugh.
If you do a little poking around, you will see that we’ve had posters here (usually newbies, and usually don’t stay around very long) who post OPs exactly like that. AFIAK, none has ever changed his mind. I think you’ve done all you can do, and the next step is what Tripolar said. He is wise beyond his years!
See my previous post for the reasons you request.
I did not say “less smart”, YOU did. I do no think they are less smart. I think they are, in fact, less educated, which you can feel free to disagree with and show why. And yes, I believe they are more apt to vote for skin color. Do you really need to have this pointed out?
I’m sure that’s it. :rolleyes:
I’m not disputing anything about education statistics, but this tells us nothing about actual understanding of the history of Civil Rights and black people in America (and I’m not sure how that would be measured, in any case). In my experience, black Americans know more about Civil Rights history, the history of slavery, and similar topics, then non-black Americans, on average.
I still see no reason to believe that black Americans know less about Civil Rights and black history than non-black Americans. In my experience they know more, in fact, on average.
Then how/why should this matter to black voters in their opinions of the parties today? How is it relevant, when choosing who to vote for today, where the parties stood in the 1800s?
I believe your assertions about what black people understand about history is incorrect, as are your assertions about black people voting reflexively, or by skin-color. Further, I believe that your assertions about black people are actually part of the reason why the Republican party does so abysmally with black people – it’s entirely reasonable for someone to be less likely to vote for a party if prominent members of that party (and non-prominent members) continually make negative statements about the race/group/ethnicity they belong to (e.g. black people are more ignorant of history; black people vote reflexively without thought; black voters only vote for skin-color; etc.).
In my mind, the first step to having a chance at reversing the abysmally low opinion among black voters of the Republican party is to recognize that many/most black people might actually have rational, reasonable, and thoughtful reasons for rejecting the Republican party. In other words, to trust that they are making the decision on who to vote for with the same amount of thought and judgment that white people (or others) do.
Education and Wages. Democrats are pro-education and pro-wages as well. Just in different ways that Black Americans prefer, like spending money on education and raising the minimum wage.
Charter Schools are, at best, a very uncertain method for improving education. You take money away from existing schools, give it to new schools, let those schools avoid the “hard” students, and leave the existing district to deal with all the remaining kids with less money. At worst, it’s a transparent union busting move to fire unionized public school teachers and open up a non-union shop with the money saved.
In terms of wages, the less said about that, the better off Republicans look. Republicans love the free market, and are happy to let desperate poor people with little bargaining power work for shit wages and zero benefits.
Johnny L.A. probably can’t change the mind of his friend who posted the original image, but there might be someone who saw the original image who might think twice if Johnny posts some facts about the history of the parties and what it means for today. If they were talking IRL it might not be worth the trouble, but online there are always third parties watching who might hear, and consider things, even if they don’t totally convert. That’s why I’m always pro spreading the truth in opposition to misinformation, though I don’t think you should obsess about it.
Ok! I’m sure that white people always know what is better for us! I’ll be sure to listen from now on. 
I’d argue with you…but every post you make means more votes for my side. Keep it up!
You may be right. But I strongly doubt it. You seem to think that skin color trumps education and the reading of books.
Again, my premise is simply that it aligns with education level. Seems like a very reasonable assumption. Why is it not?
It’s the narrative that is built when the facts are left out, both about the 1800s and the 1960s. But the lie is something that benefits the left so they (you?) are all to happy to allow it to perpetuate itself.
We disagree on what the facts are. Are you of the mind that blacks, as a whole, suffer from lower education levels than the general population? That seems just nuts. It’s also the main reason that blacks suffer from higher levels of unemployment. What is it about being black that allows a black person to benefit from knowledge without having had the education?
I’m not saying that there are not sound reasons to vote Dem, for blacks or anyone else. I’m saying that they appear to vote more lockstep, equating Dems with the party that will benefit them. Again I bring up Charter Schools. They help poor urban blacks more than any other group. And given the paramount importance of getting a good education as a predicate for doing well in life, the fact that there aren’t more people voting on THAT issue alone points to a blindness. The Sharptons of the world are all to happy to spoon-feed their constituencies the lies and distortions and presto—you get blacks voting Dem at levels of 95%.
Hell, add in the illegal immigration issue I mentioned and the majority of poor blacks should be voting Rep. You say, the 9% or so who vote with the Dem part is natural? Is the result of a thorough understanding of the issues and the solutions available. I say that’s nonsense.
Thank you for your well-informed, well-reasoned response.
While Republicans should stop living in the past, Democrats should also address the past.
Oh, I see you’re of the mind that there are plenty of votes up up for grabs.
But given your concern for black America, take solace in this, without this thread the points about about Charter Schools and how illegal immigrations fucks poor blacks would have not been made. And your posting here has only increased the likelihood that more people will see it.
Thanks for your contribution.
That’s likely to make people think, “I presented facts, and my opponents, unable to refute them, resorted to name-calling. I have the moral high ground.”
In other words, a counterproductive response.
Which Democrats don’t address the past?
This whole thread is exactly like when Rand Paul went to Howard University to explain black history to black people.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/rand-paul-explains-black-history-black-people
Unfortunately, those uneducated black students and faculty were no better at grasping the reason why policy and party behavior from 70+ should dictate their voting behavior tomorrow. #whitesplaining.
Because, in my experience, people generally know more about their own group then others know about their group. Black Americans know more about black Americans (and the history of black people in America), Jews know more about Jews, etc., then others, in general.
The facts aren’t left out, and there is no lie. Any “narrative” among black people on the two parties is built on facts, including the facts of the Republican Lincoln, Democratic support for Jim Crow, and the parties swapping these roles entirely during Civil Rights.
In my experience, black people know about the history of the parties with relation to black people, in general, at least as well as white people (or others).
??? I’m pretty sure this is widely accepted – that black Americans, in general, have less formal education than white Americans. I don’t think this tells us anything about knowledge and understanding of specific topics related to the history of black people in America.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here, but I think it’s something like “why do black people know more about this topic if they are educated less on average?”. If so, I would imagine they know more, on average, about black history in America because they are taught it by their families and communities; just as I would expect Chinese people with little formal education to have a better and more accurate understanding of Chinese history, on average, than American people.
I think this appearance is due to the history of black people in America – and especially the history of the last several decades. On the national level, one party has continually tolerated various forms of racist assertions (in recent decades) against black people, and one party has not, in general. One party has had repeated problems with party leaders ending up speaking to or belonging to white supremacist organizations, and one has not. One party has, in general, asserted that racism is not a major problem in society any more, and one party has not. One party had the Southern Strategy (a real thing that really existed), and one party did not.
From the point of view of many or most black Americans, the Republican party, since the mid-20th century, has been (more or less) the enemy of black equality, progress, and fair treatment, and the Democratic party has (more or less) been an ally (or at least much less of an enemy).
This does not match my understanding of charter schools (which, from my reading, are much more of a mixed bag), and it’s very likely that it doesn’t match the understanding of charter schools of many black people as well.
This is undoubtedly another issue on which most black voters (and myself, and many other Democratic voters) will have a different understanding of than you. At the levels of immigration the US has sustained over its history, I don’t believe that black people are harmed overall. In fact, I believe that the moderate levels of immigration we’ve experienced have made America better and stronger overall, for every group (including black people) – it has brought us new skills, new outlooks, new perspectives, and most importantly, new people hungry to work hard to better themselves and their families (many of whom are actually black, of course).
On both of these issues, I’m sure that some black voters actually agree with you but still usually vote for Democrats. But that still might be completely rational – they might place more emphasis on other issues, or they might just feel that it would be wrong to support the party that they may feel is actually (in their view) the enemy of black progress and black equality.
I stand by my opinion – black people, in general, understand their history in America, and understand where the two major political parties have stood at various times in history regarding their rights. You can feel free to think that black people are being duped, or that they’re just too ignorant and uneducated to know better, but I seriously doubt that message will win you any significant amount of agreement from black folks. I think it’s much more likely that things like immigration and charter schools are actually complicated issues with many ways to look at them, and many/most black voters might just have rational and thoughtful reasons to disagree with you (and the Republican party), on those and many other issues.
One of the main things I’ve learned, with regards to racism against black people, is this:
Trust black people about the treatment of black people. That doesn’t mean trust every single black person who claims they were mistreated, but it means that, in general, assume that black people are just as smart and just as rational as everyone else, and just as honest and just as trustworthy, and any claim they make about how they are treated is just as likely to be true as any claim anyone makes about how they are treated.
And when the vast majority of black people agree on something specifically about the treatment of black people, they are almost certainly correct. This has held true during all of American history – during slavery, most black people in America had a true, honest, and accurate understanding of how black people were treated, and many/most white people did not. During Reconstruction and Jim Crow, most black people in America had a true, honest, and accurate understanding of how black people were treated, and many/most white people (especially in the South!) did not. And it was true during the Civil Rights movement, even as more and more white people came to understand that black people may actually be speaking the truth about their treatment.
I see no reason to believe that this (a legitimate trust that most black people are honest and accurate about how black people are treated) would no longer be true.
Perhaps not, but they still cut pretty sharply against your assertion that black people vote Democrat because they’re uneducated and ignorant: even when black people are in college, well-read, and engaged on the issues, they still don’t vote Republican.
This. I have a Bachelors Degree as well as four years post baccalaureate education. I know very little Black History, or even history in general. I’m interested in science, not history.
Regarding those trying to argue magellan out of his beliefs I recommend looking upthread for suggestions:
If they have any interest in facts, you might show that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 went on regional lines and not party lines. From here:
As you can see, Northern Democrats were more likely to vote for it than Northern Republicans, Southern Democrats were more likely to vote for it than Southern Republicans. Republicans are quick to point out that they gave it a higher percentage of votes than Democrats. However, you have to consider that Northern Republicans outnumbered Northern Democrats 162-154 in the House while Southern Democrats outnumbered Southern Republicans 94-10 in the House. With the regional disparity in composition so great, the vote on the CRA is seen to be a regional vote.