How Do I Surrender [to Islam and/or Islamist terrorists]?

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Of course we are NOT at war with terrorism! Who ever heard of being at war with a tactic?
[/quote]
Anyone who has heard the phrase "War of “Terror”, of course.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
We are at war with a fascistic IDEOLOGY that masquerades as a religion. And the stakes are nothing less than the survival of human freedom and the modern, secular and democractic state.
[/quote]
Last I heard we weren’t at war with the Christian fundies. Besides, nothing says that religion can’t be a “fascistic ideology”; it usually is.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
People in the west are so incredibly ill-informed about Islam and what it stands for that western ignorance has become Islam’s secret weapon.
[/quote]
Along with the death rays ! Don’t forget those !

[QUOTE=Valteron]
The stated purpose and mandate of Islam is to bring the entire world to submit to this religion. By force or by choice makes no difference. Mohammed was mandated to fight until there is no worship but that of Allah.
[/quote]
Just like Christianity.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
To a Muslim, the world is divided into two “realms” or “dars”. The “dar el-Islam” or “realm of Islam” is the realm of “submission”. This mean countries where Islam has already triumphed. And the penalty for a Muslim who renounces Islam is death, so once it is in a country, it is there to stay!

The other realm is the “dar el-Harb” or “war zone”. I leave you to imagine who that is!
[/QUOTE]
Which might be scary . . . if they had the power to be more than an irritation. The fanatics are not and will not ever be a threat to the Western world, because they are weak, weak, weak. They will remain weak because the attitudes imposed by their fanaticism make them so. Soviet Union = Serious threat to the West that can kill billions with ease; Islamic fanatics = weak, irritating opponent that can kill a few thousand with effort. They are about as likely to take over the world as street gangs.

102

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Gay bashing, domestic violence against women and children, and attacks on abortion clinics and those associated with them come to mind. Then there’s the question of how much of the war in Iraq is motivated by Christian apocalyptic yearnings. The Vatican’s anti condom campaign also qualifies as indiscriminate killing, on a scale far vaster than Al Qaeda is ever likely to achieve. The general Christian effort against sex education and abortion has killed many as well, one way or another.
[/QUOTE]
WTF are you talking about? Nothing you wrote makes the slightest sense. What Christian religion advocates gay bashing or child abuse? Anti-condomes kill people? Sex Education kills people?

103

[QUOTE=Magiver]
WTF are you talking about? Nothing you wrote makes the slightest sense. What Christian religion advocates gay bashing or child abuse? Anti-condomes kill people? Sex Education kills people?
[/QUOTE]
How many religions don’t promote hatred, and therefore violence towards gays ? Damned few. Fundamentalist religions tend to promote child abuse simply because they are so authoritarian, and children tend to rebel. Spare the rod, spoil the child and all that. And it’s the lack of sex ed that kills, and it’s the churches that are a major cause of that. The Vatican’s opposition to condoms has of course killed many people, possibly millions by promoting the spread of AIDS and other diseases, and contributed to poverty and death by bringing more unwanted, insupportable children into the world.

104

[QUOTE=Valteron]
So, my friends, where are all these liberal, tolerant, non-sexist, non-homophobic, non-violent, non-anti-semitic Muslims? If they are really such a huge majority of the Islamic world, they must have HUGE organizations all over the place. Surely they will be out in their MILLIONS to decry the 5th anniversary of 9-11?

Surely there are huge Muslim gay rights groups? Muslim feminist groups? Surely there must be at least one Islamic democracy (and don’t cite Turkey. . . . .get serious!) Surely there is ONE large Muslim group that is willing to grant little Israel the right to survive?
[/QUOTE]

I guess we don’t hear as much about moderate Muslims because they don’t make for good headlines. (“Moderate Muslims again didn’t attack or bomb anybody, just went to work and relaxed in the evening” doesn’t sound like news, does it). We also don’t hear much about moderate Protestants Christians in the US; it’s the fundies who bomb abortion clinics, hassle gays and try to get creatonism into schools that get all the headlines. (And we don’t hear much about an outcry of moderates protesting that their religion is usurped by the fundies, either. Probably because moderates don’t feel like getting up in arms over something like that).

105

About christian child abuse: not only do many Christian fundies - even some schools! - recommend bodily punishment = beating of children, there are lots of Christian parents that send their teenagers to camps where they are brainwashed because they suspect them to be gay. This has lead teenagers to depression and suicide, because they couldn’t cope with the immense feeling of guilt heaped upon them.

106

[QUOTE=constanze]
I guess we don’t hear as much about moderate Muslims because they don’t make for good headlines. (“Moderate Muslims again didn’t attack or bomb anybody, just went to work and relaxed in the evening” doesn’t sound like news, does it). We also don’t hear much about moderate Protestants Christians in the US; it’s the fundies who bomb abortion clinics, hassle gays and try to get creatonism into schools that get all the headlines. (And we don’t hear much about an outcry of moderates protesting that their religion is usurped by the fundies, either. Probably because moderates don’t feel like getting up in arms over something like that).
[/QUOTE]

Once again, Constanze and others are falling to see things in perspective. Christian Fundies are a minority in America and elsewhere in the west. As long as we can maintain the wall of separation between Church and State, we can limit the damage they do to freedom and individual rights.

[EMAIL=Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions]Here is an example of what happns to gays in Iran.

Now, you might point out to me that gays get bashed in the west, and you might even bring up Matthew Sheppard, that kid who was pistol-whipped to death in the US western states a few years ago.

But that would be like the people in the 30s who used to say that the Third Reich’s anti-semitism had to be excused, because there was anti-semitism elsewhere. Of course! At the same time as thousands of Jews were being forced from their employment, beaten up, murdered and generally terrorized in the Third Reich, Larry Fine of the Three Stooges was being told in theatres, “Dress outside Kyke, I don’t share my dressing room with a fucking Jew.”

Both equal acts of anti-semitism, right?

And before anyone starts yelling that I am using *reductio ad Hitlerum * please note I am NOT. I am simply comparing Constanze and the others to what Lenin called “useful idiots” in regard to Communism. These were the ones that during the cold war were always ready to say “Well, the Soviet Union has gulags and stifles all dissent and human dignity, but we in America have unemployment, which does not contribute to human dignity.”

Islam is entirely different in DEGREE from anything you can point to in the west. Over the centuries, it has imposed itself on millions o people by force, and considers it has a duty to continue this until all the world is brought into its medieval, anti-feminine, gay-killing, anti-religious-freedom, puritanical theocratic fascism.

If you want quotes from the Quran in English to prove this, I have plenty.

107

[EMAIL=Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions]Here is an example of what happns to gays in Iran.

108

[QUOTE=Valteron]
…

“The vast majority of Muslims believe in freedom, equality, tolerance, etc.”

So, my friends, where are all these liberal, tolerant, non-sexist, non-homophobic, non-violent, non-anti-semitic Muslims? If they are really such a huge majority of the Islamic world, they must have HUGE organizations all over the place. Surely they will be out in their MILLIONS to decry the 5th anniversary of 9-11?

Surely there are huge Muslim gay rights groups? Muslim feminist groups? Surely there must be at least one Islamic democracy (and don’t cite Turkey. . . . .get serious!) Surely there is ONE large Muslim group that is willing to grant little Israel the right to survive?

The west can either wake up or lose to Islam.
[/QUOTE]
Information trading and sharing, that’s what it is about on this board. Where do you hear all this stuff? See people by and large don’t trust or believe certain posters like name deleted and name also deleted because they consistently over many thousands of posts refuse to link to the articles and blogs which are their source material. And with good reason. You don’t want to be like them do you?

Information trading: I’ve made my request. Here’s some information
[QUOTE=Valteron]
… Surely there must be at least one Islamic democracy …
[/QUOTE]
Pakistan,
Malaysia
Indonesia.

Largest population centres of Islamic people are in there too.

Now is that a fair trade? Your turn, where do you hear such easily disproven rumours?

109

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Along with the death rays ! Don’t forget those !
[/QUOTE]

Their three main weapons are Western ignorance, death rays, and a near-fanatical devotion to Mohammed.

110

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Pakistan,
Malaysia
Indonesia
[/QUOTE]
With democracies like that, who needs dictatorships?

111

Is “Islamic Democracy” the same as “Christian democracy”? Because the latter doesn’t exist widely, either. Even in countries like UK and Scandanavia which have a state church (and the head of government/King/Queen is also head of the Church), the laws are secular. That’s because a religious democracy of any flavour doesn’t work with our modern understanding of democracy, where laws guarantee human rights and therefore, are wider than some fundie understanding of one holy book.

If, however you meant “democracies in countries where a large part of the population are moslems”, then you can count Turkey.

There’s also the link to Cecil’s explanation of why there are relatively few democracies in Islamic countries today. If you read that, pay special attention to the extremly modern and tolderant Islamic states in the 8th century. That disproves the notion that there is something inherently aggressive in Islam itself.

112

[QUOTE=Rune]
With democracies like that, who needs dictatorships?
[/QUOTE]
Quite but who’s a fan anyway? Myself I don’t believe in democracy at all. My preference is for hereditary aristocracies. Unfortunately the big one, the US, is doing poorly at the moment, so I might have to revise. At least they manage to put on an adequately convincing show of democracy to keep the populace subdued, don’t you think.

113

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Information trading and sharing, that’s what it is about on this board. Where do you hear all this stuff? See people by and large don’t trust or believe certain posters like name deleted and name also deleted because they consistently over many thousands of posts refuse to link to the articles and blogs which are their source material. And with good reason. You don’t want to be like them do you?

Information trading: I’ve made my request. Here’s some informationPakistan,
Malaysia
Indonesia.

Largest population centres of Islamic people are in there too.

Now is that a fair trade? Your turn, where do you hear such easily disproven rumours?
[/QUOTE]

First of all, as others on this thread have pointed out, the idea that Pakistan, Malaysia and Indonesia are really democracies is laughable. In pretense, maybe. You try speaking out freely against the government or against Islam in thos countries and see what happens to you, buddy!

Secondly, you cannot prove a negative. What I am asking is where are the millions of moderate Muslims who should be saying that the Danish and western press have a rightto freedom of expression in printing cartoons, and that Islam has to respect OUR values of free speech and a free press. Where are the Muslim gay rights organizations? I am asking, but I cannot prove the non-existence of something.

You want source material? How about the Quran itself? But before I begin, let me warn all you “moral relativists” and “tu quoque” appeasers that you CANNOT draw a parallel between these quotes from the Quran and similar quotes from the Judeo-Christian Bible. Because the Bible in western society is just one of many religious books, and it is NOT the basis of our secular law system. You cannot go into court in a western country when you are charged with phsical abuse of a child and plead that the Bible says “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

In Islam, on the other hand, millions of little girls are right now being forced to memorize this passage from Surah 4, verse 34: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one to excel the other and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient. . .

Or how does this grab you? Further in the same verse and Surah: “As for those from whom ye fear rebellion (HIS fear of HER rebellion is sufficient, you will note), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.” (Italics mine)

Now, as part of the fine Islamic strategy of *Al-Taqiyah * (see my earlier post above on this long-standing Muslim trick of presenting disinformation about the true nature of Islam) many Muslims will tell you that the word “scourge” (or “beat” in some translations) is really the Arabic word “darb” and just means a light tap that causes no pain. They will admit that “darb” can mean giving a phsical beating, but that it has other meanings.

This is a PERFECT example of how *Al-Taqiyah * works. Yes, “darb” can have different meanings, just as the word “beat” does in English. It does indeed depnd on the context. “I always beat my wife at chess” does not mean I hit her over the head with the chess board. But “he comes home drunk and beats his wife” certainly does not mean he comes home drunk and they play cards and he inevitably wins.

In the context of Surah IV, verse 34, what other possible meaning could “darb” have other than physical assault causing pain? If the idea is to punish somone, what possibl use would their be in a painless tap?

Finally, Muslim men quote this verse every day to justify physical violence against their wives.

Yet, Muslims in America and the west will practice *Al-Taqiyah [/I by telling you that this does not refer to physical beating. Here again, this is part of the the centuries-old strategy of Islam to infiltrate countries in the “dar el-Harb” the “war zone” (i.e. the non-Muslim, “kaffir” countries) and lull them into believing that Islam is just a harmless religion like the others.

114

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Islam is entirely different in DEGREE from anything you can point to in the west. Over the centuries, it has imposed itself on millions o people by force, and considers it has a duty to continue this until all the world is brought into its medieval, anti-feminine, gay-killing, anti-religious-freedom, puritanical theocratic fascism.
[/QUOTE]
If you are going to talk about “over the centuries”, entire populations have been exterminated and enslaved by the Christians in God’s name. As late as 60 years ago you have the Nazis. You can make a good argument that Christianity has become generally less dangerous over the last few decades ( but I worry about the Christian fundies who want to end the world ) , but it’s silly to claim that it’s inherently less evil than Islam.

115

[QUOTE=Valteron]

To a Muslim, the world is divided into two “realms” or “dars”. The “dar el-Islam” or “realm of Islam” is the realm of “submission”. This mean countries where Islam has already triumphed. And the penalty for a Muslim who renounces Islam is death, so once it is in a country, it is there to stay!

The other realm is the “dar el-Harb” or “war zone”. I leave you to imagine who that is!

The means of conquest used by Islam frequently involve disguising its real objectives in countries stupid enough to ignore its true nature. This is the Muslim tactic of Al-Taqiyah.
[/QUOTE]

The Dar-al-Islam and Dar-al-Harb formulation was a medieval one, and not even all that useful then. The Ottomans added a third category…the Dar-al-'Ahd (house of truce), which referred to those non-Muslim states that had peace treaties with or were vassals of the Ottomans.

Some modern Muslims have added two more “houses”, the “Dar-al-Dawa” (house of invitation), which are those states where Muslims are proslytizing, and “Dar-al-Amn” (house of safety), non-Muslim states where Muslims are free to practice Islam without persecution.

you’re also misunderstanding the concept of taqiyya. Taqiyya is a lot more limited than you’re portraying it (and, btw, a lot of Sunni don’t believe taqiyya is ever ok). The doctrine says that it’s ok to lie about what you personally believe to save your life. So, if you’re a Muslim and the state is going around killing Muslims for their faith, when they ask you if you’re Muslim, it’s ok to lie. You don’t have to say you’re Muslim and let yourself be killed.

116

[QUOTE=Valteron]
You want source material? How about the Quran itself? But before I begin, let me warn all you “moral relativists” and “tu quoque” appeasers that you CANNOT draw a parallel between these quotes from the Quran and similar quotes from the Judeo-Christian Bible. Because the Bible in western society is just one of many religious books, and it is NOT the basis of our secular law system. You cannot go into court in a western country when you are charged with phsical abuse of a child and plead that the Bible says “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.
[/quote]

What other holy books are there in Western society besides the Bible that play an important role?

And you do know that parts of the Koran were copied from the Bible - Old and New Testament? That the Koran even mentions Issa Ben Mariam as prophet?

As for the Bible not being the basis of the secular law system - why is indecent exposure forbidden in the US for women? Why is gay marriage forbidden? Why are there some old, still not repealed laws about only missionary position allowed during sex in the US? These are all based on religious interpretation of the Bible, not on rational secularity.

You do know that there is a very similar passage in the NT, in Paul’s letters? That is still used today to justify the subservient role of women in the Catholic Church, for example?

I would like some more solid proof of this vast muslim conspiracy that conceals its true intentions and gives disinformation.

117

[QUOTE=constanze]

As for the Bible not being the basis of the secular law system - why is indecent exposure forbidden in the US for women? Why is gay marriage forbidden? Why are there some old, still not repealed laws about only missionary position allowed during sex in the US? These are all based on religious interpretation of the Bible, not on rational secularity.

You do know that there is a very similar passage in the NT, in Paul’s letters? That is still used today to justify the subservient role of women in the Catholic Church, for example?
[/QUOTE]

Once again, Constanze, you are playing the role of the “useful idiot” (I am NOT flaming you, nor calling you an idiot per se; I am simply using a term coined by Lenin about the “touchy-feely” leftist intellectuals that could be useful in helping Communism achieve world domination by getting them to parrot disinformation about the true aims of Communism in the last century.)

Once again, you are using your moral relativist position to try to allege that the west is no different.

First of all, many western countries (five so far) accept perfectly equal gay marriage. Another several (I do not have the exact number) accept some form of civil union. And consensual adult gay sex is legal in all but a handful of western countries.

In Islamic states, gays are hanged (did you see the picture I linked in my other posting?), whipped, or imprisoned (see the recent case in Egypt). The most common solution is for the family to slip a few dollars to a local jailer to hang the gay person in his cell (in a very painful way) to retrieve the famil “honour”. By the same token, young men who murder their kid sisters for getting pregnantout of wedlock are considered heroes.

And yes, I do know that there are anti-feminine passages in St. Paul. Now you tell me. . . . . do you know about many public schools in the west where little girls and boys are obliged to learn these passages by heart? Because that is what they do in Muslim countries.

WAKE UP, all you people in democratic countries, before it is too late.

118

[QUOTE=Valteron]
WAKE UP, all you people in democratic countries, before it is too late.
[/QUOTE]
Wake up to what ? You can rave all you want, but the crude fact is they can’t conquer us. It doesn’t matter if ever single Muslim country is composed of raving fanatics down to the small children; they don’t have the power.

119

[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]

you’re also misunderstanding the concept of taqiyya. Taqiyya is a lot more limited than you’re portraying it (and, btw, a lot of Sunni don’t believe taqiyya is ever ok). The doctrine says that it’s ok to lie about what you personally believe to save your life. So, if you’re a Muslim and the state is going around killing Muslims for their faith, when they ask you if you’re Muslim, it’s ok to lie. You don’t have to say you’re Muslim and let yourself be killed.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I SEE! You seriously expect that Muslims are going to tell you the *full truth * about how taqiyya works? About the role it plays in lulling other countries into complacency while mosques in downtown London and in US cities recruit young Muslims as terrorists?

Has it even occurred to you, Captain Amazing, that the explanation you are being given is in itself a form of disinformation, or Taqiyya?

Did you honestly think the Muslims were going to post a full exp[lanation of how it works so you and I can see it on the Internet?

Do you see what I mean when I say that we in the west are naive boobs when it comes to Islam?

“Islam is a religion of peace” right? Riiiiiight!!!

Try asking their neighbours about them. Ask Hindus, Israelis, Thais, you name it.

Let’s see how many countries/regions we can name in which Muslims have practised terrorism or are in armed conflict with thegovernment or their neighbours.

Afghanistan, the Philippines, the United States of America, Spain (railway bombings) Britain (various terorist acts) France (rioting) Sudan (Darfur), Canada (recent arrests of Muslims planning terrorist acts), Iraq (Kurds, Sunni/Shiite, Iraq invading Kuwait, Iraq v. Iran) the never-ending hostility to Israel, Syria taking over Lebannon, Pakistan v. India (esp. Kashmir) Pakistan v. Bangladesh in the 1970s, the death sentence against Salman Rushdie, riots over the cartoons in a Danish newspaper. . . . . . imagine if they were NOT a religion of peace!

120

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Wake up to what ? You can rave all you want, but the crude fact is they can’t conquer us. It doesn’t matter if ever single Muslim country is composed of raving fanatics down to the small children; they don’t have the power.
[/QUOTE]

I suggest you look at statistics for most western countries. Growing immigrant populations of Muslims, Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women and absorbing them into Islam, the birth rate of Muslim women (4.5 per couple as opposed to numbers like .9 (Japan) and 1.1 (Italy) in the west. They constantly brag that they are the world’s fastest growing religion, which is not difficult when you turn women into baby machines for Allah.

Look at the lieacy gap between men and women in Muslim countries sometime. You will find these stats very revealing.