How Do I Surrender [to Islam and/or Islamist terrorists]?

Great Debates
121

[QUOTE=Valteron]
I suggest you look at statistics for most western countries. Growing immigrant populations of Muslims, Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women and absorbing them into Islam, the birth rate of Muslim women (4.5 per couple as opposed to numbers like .9 (Japan) and 1.1 (Italy) in the west. They constantly brag that they are the world’s fastest growing religion, which is not difficult when you turn women into baby machines for Allah.

Look at the lieacy gap between men and women in Muslim countries sometime. You will find these stats very revealing.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I meant “literacy” gap. :smack: Some 70% or more of Pakistani women are illiterate. In Afghanistan it reaches above 90% I believe.

122

Yanno, if it wouldn’t get me a big 'ol fatwa, I’d suggest something about this phrase…

123

[QUOTE=Valteron]
I suggest you look at statistics for most western countries. Growing immigrant populations of Muslims, Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women and absorbing them into Islam, the birth rate of Muslim women (4.5 per couple as opposed to numbers like .9 (Japan) and 1.1 (Italy) in the west. They constantly brag that they are the world’s fastest growing religion, which is not difficult when you turn women into baby machines for Allah.

Look at the lieacy gap between men and women in Muslim countries sometime. You will find these stats very revealing.
[/QUOTE]
And in a generation or two those people are assimilated into Western culture. Besides which, numbers don’t matter very much. As I said, their own beliefs cripple them as a culture.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Sorry, I meant “literacy” gap. :smack: Some 70% or more of Pakistani women are illiterate. In Afghanistan it reaches above 90% I believe.
[/QUOTE]
Which is another reason they will never be more than an irritant.

You also haven’t said what your solution would be. Conquest ? Genocide ? Forced conversion to Christianity ? History’s most massive group hug ?

124

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Oh, I SEE! You seriously expect that Muslims are going to tell you the *full truth * about how taqiyya works? About the role it plays in lulling other countries into complacency while mosques in downtown London and in US cities recruit young Muslims as terrorists?

Has it even occurred to you, Captain Amazing, that the explanation you are being given is in itself a form of disinformation, or Taqiyya?
[/quote]

Well, for that matter how do we know that Freemasons who put up the web screed from which you undoubtedly derived this information didn’t make the whole thing up to distract you from their sinister plot to secretly extract all of our precious bodily fluids while we sleep?

Y’see now, this is why I have a hard time taking posts like this seriously and why I have an even harder time responding to them. Either the poster is putting us on or is so aggressively ill-informed that any counter is undoubtedly a waste of time. True Belief dies hard.

But one last time, for the benefit of any stray befuddled lurkers:

Taqiyya is a Shi’a concept. More specifically it is an Ithna’ashari and Isma’ili Shi’a concept ( the Zaydi Shi’a reject it ). It appears to have been first introduced by Muhammed al-Baqir, the fifth Imam in those traditions ( he died in 743, a little over a century after Muhammed ). As a concept it was elaborated on in the early 11th century by Shi’a scholars writing largely under the protection of the Buyids ( an ostensibly Shi’a dynasty that had achieved a praetorian authority over the Sunni Caliph ), sometimes under Nizari auspices ( as with al-Tusi for a time ). It was designed specifically to deal with the issue of Sunni discrimination against the Shi’a and had allowed a certain amount of dissimulation about their faith in order to avoid persecution. It was to be used in times of extreme personal threat ( i.e. your life is in danger ) and never when the killing of innocents might result.

In that specific guise it has never really been a facet of Sunni Islam. Generally classical Sunni scholars have tended to argue that concealing their faith is verboten and the best response to persecution by non-Muslims is to emigrate if resistance is futile. Some have allowed some flexibility in the face of hard to avoid persecution, as with the ‘crypto-Muslims’ of post-Granada conquest Spain ( as in a fatwa written in 1504 in Oran ), but even that has tended to be a minority view.

But in none of these formulations was the idea to lurk undetected and infiltrate for the moment to strike. Rather it was concerned with simple survival.

Now that doesn’t rule out the possibility that some ostensibly Sunni Jihadist wingnuts haven’t seized on some variety of the above as theological justification for prevaricating to and deceiving the infidel to bring about their downfall. But that is hardly normative theology.

  • Tamerlane
125

[QUOTE=Tamerlane]

Now that doesn’t rule out the possibility that some ostensibly Sunni Jihadist wingnuts haven’t seized on some variety of the above as theological justification for prevaricating to and deceiving the infidel to bring about their downfall. But that is hardly normative theology.

  • Tamerlane
    [/QUOTE]

Sorry, Tamerlane, but your very scholarly exposition of all the purported meanings of al-Taqiya over the centuries ends with a comment, the above-quoted, that specifically proves my point. Namely, that it can (and likely has been) re-interpreted and is being used by Islam in its fanatical, Allah-given mandate to impose their medieval theocracy on what they view as the “corrupt” and “Kaffir” west.

In point of fact, the “normative theology” of some Imam who lived centuries ago does not interest me a rat’s ass. What I see today is Muslims all over the world bullshitting me about the real nature of their religion, talking one talk but walking a completely different walk.

When I am told that the word for “scourge” or “beat” in Surah IV, verse 34 really means a light tap, I know someone is lying to me. When they tell me theirs is a religion of peace and then Muslims all over the world engage in war and terrorism, I know somone is practising disinformation.

If you want to quibble that this is not the meaning of al-Taqiya as interpreted by some Imam dead for centuries, I would reply that it was five years ago, not five centuries, that thousands of screaming innocents ended their lives in fire and rubble in New York, while their co-religionists continued to make up stories that the Jews were responsible. If it was not officially called al-Taqiya, so what?

I will always remember the quote of one American the day after 9-11 when one Muslim (of course he could NOT have been practising al-Taqiya, we all know that now) started his “Islam is a religion of PEACE!” routine and the American replied, “Don’t tell me, tell your murderous Muslim ‘brothers’”.

So, Tamerlane, if only 1% of all those hudreds of millions of “peaceful” Muslims who allegedly disapprove of Sept. 11 decide to demonstrate on Monday, we should see worldwide marches of Muslims that will make he crowds that rioted over the Mohammed cartoons look small. What do you want to bet we see them? HMMMMMMM???

126

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Namely, that it can (and likely has been) re-interpreted and is being used by Islam in its fanatical, Allah-given mandate to impose their medieval theocracy on what they view as the “corrupt” and “Kaffir” west.
[/quote]
As had been pointed out, there is no Islam. It’s not Catholic Church; there is no central organization. And btw, when the resident mouth frothing militant atheist tells you that you are overdoing your hostility towards a religion, you might want to think about it.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
When they tell me theirs is a religion of peace and then Muslims all over the world engage in war and terrorism, I know somone is practising disinformation.
[/quote]
Nothing special; Christians and Hindus and so forth kill people over religion all the time too.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
If you want to quibble that this is not the meaning of al-Taqiya as interpreted by some Imam dead for centuries, I would reply that it was five years ago, not five centuries, that thousands of screaming innocents ended their lives in fire and rubble in New York, while their co-religionists continued to make up stories that the Jews were responsible. If it was not officially called al-Taqiya, so what?
[/quote]
You are confusing self deluding bigotry with this “al-Taqiya” disinformation campaign.

[QUOTE=Valteron]
So, Tamerlane, if only 1% of all those hudreds of millions of “peaceful” Muslims who allegedly disapprove of Sept. 11 decide to demonstrate on Monday, we should see worldwide marches of Muslims that will make he crowds that rioted over the Mohammed cartoons look small. What do you want to bet we see them? HMMMMMMM???
[/QUOTE]
Why would they ? It’s not their problem, it’s ours and Al Qaeda’s. Besides, we’ve destroyed any good will the world ever had towrds us, Muslim or otherwise.

127

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Where are the Muslim gay rights organizations?
[/QUOTE]

al-Fatiha
Aswat (Voices) - Palestinian Gay Women
Imaan UK
Queer Jihad
Safra Project
Salaam Canada

128

Valteron, consider this post.

You seem to believe that even though there are liberal Muslims out there, even though there are even Muslim gay-rights organizations, as Johanna pointed out, even though whatever I may say, Islam is still a fundamentally evil religion because you’ve figured out a way in which we may apply Islamic scripture – even while destroying the theology – to justify a project of world domination. Of course, Christianity and other religions with big self-contradicting holy books that can be used as well to justify anything, good or bad, are exempt from this conspiracy theory, because “the Bible in western society is just one of many religious books”. Right. But if I point out many liberal and moderate (and even conservative) Muslims who assure you that they get their moral teachings from other places than the Qur’an and the various Hadith, well, I will be answered that they certainly don’t represent Islam.

Now, if you believe this, what’s so outrageous about astorian “question” whether the Quebec independence movement is just about extorting things from Ottawa (an opinion that is shared by many in English Canada and America, as I’m sure you know)? Even if we can point out people like you who have supported federalism all your life, even taking part into political campaigns, or like me, who am quite neutral about the whole thing but can mention positive points about both federalism and separation, he can always claim that we’re just not representative. After all, his position holds water quite well, doesn’t it? Yes, Quebecers are there to extract goodies from Ottawa, it’s part of our education, just like Muslims are there to conquer the world. Makes perfect sense.

Think about how your different positions relate to each other, Valteron.

129

[QUOTE=Valteron]
Once again, Constanze, you are playing the role of the “useful idiot” (I am NOT flaming you, nor calling you an idiot per se; I am simply using a term coined by Lenin about the “touchy-feely” leftist intellectuals that could be useful in helping Communism achieve world domination by getting them to parrot disinformation about the true aims of Communism in the last century.)

Once again, you are using your moral relativist position to try to allege that the west is no different.
[/quote]

It would be nice if you didn’t ascribe me motivations and positions without asking me first. I’m not a moral relativist (if by that you mean that I think all morals are equal), because I have a strong moral position.

And I’m not your “useful Lening idiot”, that helps some conspiracy achieve world denomanition, because 1) there isn’t a conspiracy and 2) there’s only one country now that’s close to world denomination, and it’s not Muslim. (Hint: it starts with an U.)

You must have missed that part of my post where I specificially referred to the US. (Or are you not American?) The country that is foremost at the “Islamists= fascists” and “axis of evil” and other propaganda rhetoric, is also the the least secular country in the west.

Public schools, no. But I like some proof that in normal public schools in normal muslim countries that’s taught. A religious school in the West (Christian) will likely teach that, just as a religious moslem school will.

130

[QUOTE=constanze]
And I’m not your “useful Lening idiot”, that helps some conspiracy achieve world denomanition, because 1) there isn’t a conspiracy and 2) there’s only one country now that’s close to world denomination, and it’s not Muslim. (Hint: it starts with an U.)
[/QUOTE]
Correct. Beware the Ukrainians !

131

[QUOTE=black rabbit]
Cite?
[/QUOTE]

“They hate us because of our freedom.” Bush II said it, so it must be true!

132

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
. . . .when the resident mouth frothing militant atheist tells you that you are overdoing your hostility towards a religion, you might want to think about it. QUOTE]

Both Der Thrihs and another poster whose name escapes me have been warning me that I am not objective enough in my various expositions. Presumably, cool, unprejudiced analysis of of objective information is what SDMB is all about. :rolleyes: Yeah, right!

And I have been warned that if I persist in my bigoted ways, I will lose the respect of all those other paragons of objectivity who post nothing but pure reasoned facts on these boards. Horrors!!!:dubious:

Well, here is some objectivity you can put in your pipes and smoke: I openly admit I am a loser who has nothing better to do with his money and time than spend $14 and hundreds of hours a year paying to see my opinions dressed up as factual arguments on a message board.

Now what about the rest of you? Well, now, I get the feeling that I am about to hijack this thread and that what I have to say belongs more properly in the BBQ pit, so why don’t you meet me there. See my posting that is about to go up.

One last word about Islam. Like Churchill said in 1939, don’t say I didn’t warn you!

133

[QUOTE=Kimstu]
And whatever his personal religious views may be, he’s certainly openly aligning himself with fundamentalists on many issues, from right-to-life to intelligent design to gay marriage.
[/QUOTE]

And, to move back to the topic, by inventing the silly “Islamic Fascist” name instead of calling the enemy what it is: Islamic Fundamentalism.

134

[QUOTE=Gozu]
Oh yeah? And what will happen when we recognize the veracity of your brilliant theory?

Err…well…I suppose if Islam causes terrorism, then Islam is the problem. Let’s convert them!

Don’t be an idiot. You can’t do that anymore that the japanese could convert the occidental world to shintoism.

Well…let’s keep them away. Let’s close our borders to all the citizens of muslim countries!

But what about the dozens of millions of muslims in europe and the U.S? Not to mention Asia…Should the borders be closed to Pakistanis? What about muslim indians? Muslim chinese maybe? Should we close the border with China? No, no, that will never do! This whole quarantine business is an obviously stupid and unfeasible idea. Kinda like the war on drugs.

Well then..let’s exterminate them! We’ve done it to the indians, we can do it again!

Over a billion of them, genocide not a good option.

So..what? we can’t kill’em, we can’t keep’em out. WHAT IS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE MUSLIM MENACE???SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!Do you want your children to be killed in a terrorist attack?

No comment.

Honestly Rickya. Sure, I might be sarcastic because I found your assertions stupid and irritating. I hope I will be forgiven for so blunt but I have been given no reason to spare your feelings given the nature of the post and my own background. However, that’s no reason for you, ricki, not to think critically about what you have said. If you really do it, and are open to admit your mistakes, and bright enough to see that you are mistaken, you will be better off for it in the end. Otherwise, well, too bad.

I can only hope that the rest of the SDMB members share my views in this matter. Thinking otherwise would be utterly depressing.
[/QUOTE]

This is not theory, Gozu. I know what I’m talking about. I’m an apostate of Islam.

Islam is indeed the problem. But the solution is not to convert them but to inform them. A lot of muslims don’t know what real Islam is. Most of them do not understand the Quran. Those who do know the truth about Islam and embrace it become terrorists. Those who learn the truth about Islam and are repulsed by it will leave it.

I know that most people are sensitive to criticism when it comes to their religion. . Don’t get me wrong, majority of Muslims are ignorant of the truth about Islam and are good and honest people. But I don’t agree that we should turn a blind eye to the evil of this religion.

135

[QUOTE=rickya]
This is not theory, Gozu. I know what I’m talking about. I’m an apostate of Islam.

Islam is indeed the problem. But the solution is not to convert them but to inform them. A lot of muslims don’t know what real Islam is. Most of them do not understand the Quran. Those who do know the truth about Islam and embrace it become terrorists. Those who learn the truth about Islam and are repulsed by it will leave it.

I know that most people are sensitive to criticism when it comes to their religion. . Don’t get me wrong, majority of Muslims are ignorant of the truth about Islam and are good and honest people. But I don’t agree that we should turn a blind eye to the evil of this religion.
[/QUOTE]

Wow.
You’re very brave, rickya.
I wish you all the best and please be carefull.

136

[QUOTE=gum]
Wow.
You’re very brave, rickya.
I wish you all the best and please be carefull.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll second that.

rickya, I hope you stick around. It is very rare to get the opinion of a Muslim apostate around here. (Plenty of Christiian apostates though, and there’s so many of them it gets boring :smiley: )

137

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
I’ll second that…
[/QUOTE]
Making an unverifiable generalisation from individual experience, in lieu of reasoned persuasion or facts?

Mark me down for “not believing a word of it”.

138

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Making an unverifiable generalisation from individual experience, in lieu of reasoned persuasion or facts?

Mark me down for “not believing a word of it”.
[/QUOTE]

What ?

139

gum, Dutch and rickya (and Valteron, if you still care): consider a person who believes in a single God, who tries to follow the five pillars of Islam, who has some emotional attachment towards the Qur’an and tries to follow the good things found in it – while knowing that it’s a document from another time and that it also has bad things in it --, and who thinks that liberal democracy is the best government form we have found until now and that every person should be equal, regardless of age, race, sex, sexual orientation, etc. Also suppose that this person calls themselves a “Muslim”. Now how would you describe this person’s religion? Personally, I would take this person at their word and also say that they practice Islam, but it’s pretty clear that you wouldn’t: not only aren’t they a terrorist, but they also think women are equal to men and that gays shouldn’t be murdered. So okay, if you want, let’s create a new word for these people. They don’t practice Islam, they practice, say, Malis, a religion with a long history that is now becoming more popular. So what rickya basically says is that we have to inform Muslims so that they stop being Muslims and instead become Malisious (or any other religion that looks like Islam until we get to the terrorism part). Hmm, sure, why not.

Oh, and gum, if it makes you feel better, our dear colleague Angua, despite her claim, isn’t a Muslim after all, she’s really a Malisious. So you may now sleep on your two ears, she won’t catch the next plane to the Netherlands to terrorize you. :wink:

Hey, after all, there are still millions of people who say that Mormons aren’t really Christians despite the fact that Mormons have always claimed that they are the true Christian church. I guess that’s not very different.

Now, what we have to discuss is whether tomndebb really is a Catholic… :stuck_out_tongue:

140

[QUOTE=severus]
Personally, I would take this person at their word
[/quote]

Ever heard of Taqiyya ?

Angua claims she is a Shiite. Taqiyya is mostly a Shiite concept so I don’t know what to make of her.