Suppose a woman named Anastasia Ivanovna Kasparova had an illegitimate child- we’ll call him Boris. Assume he’s not acknowledged by his father in any way. Would he be Boris Ivanovich Kasparov (as if he were his grandfather’s son) or is there a patronym that means illegitimate- is there a precedent in some way?
The same question for Hebrew names- if Leah the daughter of Simon has an illegitimate son, is he bar-Simon or bar-Abbas or, again, something else?
And in Spanish cultures where the daughter of Jose Garcia Lopez and Maria Martinez Goya is Luz Garcia Martinez, if Luz has an illegitimate child is he also Garcia Martinez?
IIRC, in Russia he’d be Boris Ivaonovich Kasparov – but not because of the name of the grandfather. It’d be because he was the son of “Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov” – the Russian equivalent of “John Doe” (i.e., some unknown person).
Someone asked this question here when I was still living in Eastern Europe, so I asked some of my colleagues. They were confounded by the question, and had no idea. I guess it doesn’t come up very often. By the way, they are also always confounded to realize that I don’t have a patronym for a middle name. The idea that parents can just pick a random middle name was just crazy to them. Even the ethnic Turks had patronyms - they just had their father’s first name (without the -ov or -ova) as their middle name. (So, Ivana, daughter of Ivan was Ivana Ivanova, and Cibel daughter of Mehmed was Cibel Mehmed.)
Modern Hebrew names aren’t patronymic, so it isn’t an issue. I mean, there are people who have names that look patronymic, but they’re almost always made-up, created by people who were shedding their old Eastern European names. I guess that some people really did use their father’s name to create a new one, but then they were passed on to their children, instead of their children creating a new one based on their own father. (Wikipedia has an article on this topic.) And then sometimes they’re creative. When I lived in Israel, I once wondered if there are any people who adopted “Bat-_____” names, to indicate if they are the daughter of someone, rather than the son. I looked it up in my phone book and yup, there were a couple listed. I remember specifically that one was Yael Bat-Yam, which translates as “Fawn Daughter of the Sea”. (Oh, Israeli names.) You know she just made that up.
I was in a production of the play You Can’t Take it With You once in which the actor who played the role of Russian dance instructor Boris Kohlenkov was Russian in real life. In the play he references a Grand Duchess, Olga Katrina, who is working as a waitress (she’s also a character in the final scene). The actor lobbied the director to change the name saying that a Russian woman, especially of noble birth, would never under any circumstances have a double name- she might be Olga Alexandrovna but there’s no equivalent to a name like Mary Alice. (The character remained Olga Katrina and he lived with it.)
In Iceland, where patronyms are still heavily used, the child will have a last name of <mother’s first name>dóttir/sson. But not all people with matronyms fall into this category.
The grandfather’s name didn’t count. But it also looks like the mother can also choose the patronymic, too. It can be the father, or anyone else. In old times, it was often the name of the priest that baptized the child. However, if the mother expresses no preference (and under the Communist regime), “Ivanovich” would probably be used.
I’d like to see a cite for this. I’ve studied Russian language & culture for 25 years now (and lived 15 years in the country), and I’ve never heard of Ivanovich being used as the default patronymic. As far as I know, either the grandfather’s name is traditionally used for the patronymic, or the godfather’s name, if he was willing. My (native Russian) wife concurs.
This is an article (in Russian, or piss-poor Google translation here) about a proposal to allow mothers to give whatever patronymic they want, if no paternity has been established. Apparently a court order is needed at the moment.
We’ve had other theads on this issue and IRCC yes, the child would simply be given both of his mother’s surnames (ie Luz Garcia Maritinez’s illegitimate son would be Juan Garcia Martinez).
In the Soviet film Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears the main character gives birth out-of-wedlock and when her friends what she’s naming the child she says something “Alexandra Alexandrovna” with her surname. Her ex-lover’s name was Rudolf.
Article 58 of the Family Code of the Russian Federation (my translation, from here):
Article 58. Right of the child to a name, patronymic and surname
The child has the right to a given name, patronymic and surname.
The name of the child is given by agreement of the parents, the patronymic is assigned according to the name of the father, unless otherwise is stipulated by the laws of the constituent entities [i.e. regions/districts/national republics] of the Russian Federation or is based on national customs…
Given the many non-Russian ethnicities in the Russian Federation, they’re a bit flexible with citizens who have no tradition of patronymics.
My kids were both born in Russia. Each time, we were asked whether or not to enter a patronymic on the birth certificate. We didn’t, since my name doesn’t make for a particularly euphonious otchestvo - Timotiyevich doesn’t roll off the tongue in any language - and there are dashes in that field of their birth certificates.
Presumably, this means they are required by law if both parents are ethnic Russians (or other nationality with a tradition of patronymics).
In the case of Iceland, the patronymic/matronymic is legally required and necessary for practical reasons - most Icelanders do not use a surname or family name, so a child without a patronymic could end up with only a given name!
I think there are exceptions made for a child who is not ethnically Icelandic and who will have an inherited surname.
Ridiculous; there are plenty of Icelanders without patronymics. If having a patronymic is a legal requirement, then from 2006 to 2009 the country was run by the openly criminal Geir Haarde.
Funnily enough, that’s initially what we expected/wanted - I knew plenty of Timofeeviches (though no Timofeys outside of cats - I suspect it’s out of fashion as a name). The nice lady at ZAGS was adamant though - the name on my visa was transliterated as Тимоти, not Тимофей, so it was Тимотиевич or nothing!
(note the law says the name is given by the parents, but the patronymic is assigned…)
I think you missed flodnak’s point – a patronymic was legally required for people without a legal surname. (Granted, he narrowed it to those who were not ethnic Icelanders, but the point stands.)
Timchik, how many Timofeis did you know inside cats?
Strange… My ex-wife is Russian, and we have a daughter who is currently living with her mother in Moscow.
When she was born and registered, she got her patronymic all right… Although my (Spanish) name José was transliterated phonetically in my visa as “Хосэ”, the people at ZAGS were perfectly happy to assign my daughter a patronymic based on the Russian form of the name, “Йосиф” (and, therefore, “Йосифовна”).
I guess that it all depends on how anal the particular ZAGS officer is…
