A man extending his unrequested hand to a woman to me seems like the most obvious sign that he disrespects her. In his eyes she is literally unclaimed chattel for the taking of anybody that’s interested. If he respects her he would not dream of doing something that could negatively effect her reputation in either the business or the social world.
And how is that any different if they ask if they can shake your hand? Your answer is still no. The person who’s going to be offended is going to be offended regardless. Ergo, the problem is with the asshole, and not with the offer of a handshake, regardless of how it is made.
Your problem is that you’re confusing correlation with causation.
ETA on seeing the new page:
And it’s so funny that you think that handshakes only have this mysterious message of ownership when offered to women versus men.
That’s just absurd. If a man doesn’t offer to shake my hand but does shake the hands of the men standing around, then I am going to be offended as hell. I am in no way different because of my gender, and there is no excuse to treat someone differently because of their gender. No, US business culture should not bow to your preferences. You don’t care to shake hands then say “I don’t shake hands”, but don’t expect this whole country to change just because your culture says otherwise. Lots of women fought very hard so that I would be treated equally, and there is no way I will let that backslide even the tiniest bit to cater to other cultures.
True that you can’t shake hands without touching, but the point is that it takes two to shake hands. If someone puts a hand directly onto me, then I can’t avoid the touch, but if they hold out their hand to me, it’s my choice whether to touch them by extending my hand out as well.
That POV requires the mindset that a woman can be any kind of chattel…claimed or unclaimed. Most of us women don’t see ourselves that way, and thank god neither do the men in our society.
This thread wins some kind of award for most uses of the word “chattel.” You know how if you say a word often enough, it starts to sound weird and nonsensical?
Chattel. Chattel, chattel chattel.
Zealot, we don’t see a man shaking a woman’s hand as claiming chattel any more than you see a man claiming another man as chattel when two businessmen shake hands. The one man is not claimed by the other man. Similarly, the woman is not claimed, either.
It’s not. It’s equally embarrassing either way, which is why you don’t offer to shake somebody’s hand, either by asking or proffering your hand to shake, if you know that the person you’re talking to won’t want to shake your hand. So, if you’re a woman, and you’re meeting the Satmar Rebbe, you don’t offer him your hand. That’s what we’re talking about here, right? A case when you’re talking to somebody who has some cultural objection to touching a member of the opposite sex.
Right, but then the whole thing becomes a social faux pas, and the person who holds out his hand is standing there looking like an idiot and the person who doesn’t shake the hand looks antisocial, and standoffish.
Seriously, what world do you live in? Because it’s not any flavor of the modern first world that I’m familiar with.
<hijack>It’s called semantic satiation. I got a seriously bad case of that last weekend at the Albuquerque Balloon fiesta - after a while both “Albuquerque” and “balloon” just became meaningless noises or combinations of letters.
Well, your people on the other hand (hah) don’t seem to have any problem extending their unrequested hands into purses, pockets to steal wallets 
I never knew that handshakes were so complicated
Actually the Rom [would it be more understandable if I used the perjorative Gypsy?] have a moderately well deserved reputation historically of living by criminal activity [hence the term ‘gypsy cab’ referring to an illegal taxi] so imagine she and 2 other Rom, the other 2 Rom are discussing pickpocketing the rude gajo [nonRom] as a punishment for insinuating that she is available.
Marginalized groups have trouble getting ‘normal’ employment and tend to have to live on the fringes of society, or develop public personas that let them get a job, think crypto-jews in historic Spain, in Nazi Germany, blacks passing as white in the US all are assumed roles to integrate into the majority populations. Many times the only normal profession for Rom were as entertainers [think of the classical image of the gypsy violinist in Hungary, the roaming carnivals, with gypsy fortune tellers and performers] and as prostitutes and thieves when they couldnt get normal short term jobs. Sort of as as self fulfilling destiny, nobody will hire them because they are worried about them stealing, so the only way they can make money is to steal it. <shrug> People hate outsiders. It is ingrained into us, mainly to keep any limited resources for ourselves.
I see a man sticking out his hand at a woman as a man who assumes it’s his right to expect a woman to touch him. I see a man with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues and no respect for other cultures, in other words a jerk.
The heck it does. It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter. As for the idea that just sticking out a hand is an acceptable way of asking, my dog does that (okay it’s a paw, bu the principle is the same). I would like to think the men I meet are more intelligent.
Some tend to feel like that’s what those individuals deserve for treating others so disrespectfully. Roma are like most people on earth. Treat them fairly and they will treat you fairly. We are not as forgiving as Quakers or the Amish when treated badly however.
Very much, the initial hijack started when lindsay complained about her boyfriend being rejected on a handshake by the female leader of a Muslim student group. Excuse me, but in this day and age, that sounds more like he was looking to provoke an argument with a Muslim group than anything else.
How do you know that she is literally unclaimed chattel in his eyes? Do you believe that all men who deny they think of a woman that way when they shake her hand are lying?
Your justification that “It implies that a woman is a free independent individual. Her body belongs to her and her alone, not community property or property of the strongest individual in the room, etc. And once again, if you want to touch someone, you ask permission verbally, so that there can be no confusion about the matter.” is gender neutral. If you are coherent with your justification, you should have as much of a problem with a woman extending her unrequested hand. Do you?
But you’ve said that it’s OK for a woman to offer her hand to a man. She’s claiming the man as chattel. The fact that she thinks she has the right to touch a man disgusts me. I see a woman with a hell of a lot of entitlement issues. In other words, an asshat.
To a certain extent yes. In this day and age with so many diverse cultures and religions living and working together, I think it’s rather foolish and rude not to ask that question, “Do you shake hands?” of anyone you meet for the first time (or whom you can’t remember their answer since you saw them last) especially in a business situation where one would assume the most formal manners would be used.
I can’t think of a culture yet that has a history of women raping men or of wives killing or beating or divorcing husbands because they appeared to friendly with other women. If that ever occurs you might have a point. As things are the act of iniating physical contact much like that of deciding whether or not to carry a baby to term belongs to the woman as she has a far greater risk in the situation than a man has.