ew man cooties.
And your being uncomfortable with shaking hands with men you’re not related to can be averted by you not shaking hands with men you’re not related to. A shocking revelation, I’m sure.
Do you seriously not comprehend the difference between an action and an offer?
Offer: Holding out your hand for someone to shake. Asking someone, “May I shake your hand?”
Action: Demanding that someone depart from the dominant cultural standards of the culture you are both living in to align with the standards of your foreign culture, such as insisting that a woman cover herself or that a man ask before offering a handshake, which is in and of itself an offer of a handshake.
I’d say accusing any man of being a rapist who proffers a woman a hand in a culture where it’s not only accepted but respectful to shake hands is not being respectful of his culture and trying to impose your own on him through intimidation. And my guess is that everyone else in this thread agrees with me, as would the vast majority of people in the United States, and an even larger percentage of people who were raised here and spent most of our lives living here.
Because of the immigration, melting pot (or tossed salad) nature of the America and the global marketplace, there really isn’t a case of a dominant culture (nor should there be), multi-cultural etiquette that appreciates and respects everyone’s differences is what is called for. If you want to go by the old WASP rules, a gentlemen does not offer his hand to a woman. If you want to go by the new multicultural paradigm, one should always ask verbally, do you shake hands?, because some people come from cultures where that is not done.
And my opinion isn’t that he is automatically a rapist, just rude and cultural insensitive, with a great likelihood that he could be a rapist.
Whether it’s appropriate for someone to proposition me for casual sex depends on the situation, and has nothing to do with whether we’ve shaken hands or not. If I’m starting a new job and shake hands with my coworkers as we’re introduced, it would still be inappropriate for them to proposition me because we’re at work. If I’m at a bar and my friend introduces me to a guy she knows and we shake hands, then I wouldn’t think it inappropriate if he propositioned me (politely) because we’re in a relaxed social situation at a bar. (Unless he knew that I’m engaged, in which case it would still be inappropriate, unless he knew me to be in an open relationship.) The appropriateness of propositions for casual sex has nothing to do with shaking hands and everything to do with the environment and the people involved.
The problem with generalizing that rule, though, is that it assumes that men and women should be treated the same way. That works within the dominant US culture, which has that general assumption, but if you’re dealing with somebody from a different culture; an Orthodox Jew, or a traditional Rom, or a devout Muslim, or a traditional Indian, following that rule can still cause offense.
And in our society, we have decided that those rules are retarded and offensive. If they want to subject themselves to them, go for it, but they shouldn’t try to force them on everyone else. Sexual discrimination in the workplace is illegal in this country.
Anyone who doesn’t like it is welcome to move to a country where women are still chattel.
Well, I think there’s a difference between “men and women shouldn’t touch each other” and “women are chattel”. And I don’t think it’s a matter of forcing it on everyone else. No one is saying that men shouldn’t be allowed to touch women. But part of business is making your coworkers and clients and the people you deal with comfortable, and if you know that someone has a cultural taboo (or even a personal one…maybe you’re dealing with Mr. Monk) against you touching them, you shouldn’t try to touch them.
How did this go down? Did he first ascertain that you were not a Mormon? Or a diabetic? Or did he just whip it out?
How am I to know if the person I’m meeting has some restriction on speaking to a person of the opposite sex? If I ask them if it’s OK to shake their hand, I may have already crossed the line.
Maybe we all need to advertise our list of what we can accept, so there will never be any accidental violations. Arm bands, perhaps?
He invited me politely to join him for coffee And mentioned that the coffee was good Turkish coffee.
If they have a restriction on speaking to a person of the opposite sex, they will ignore your question or get someone of the correct gender to answer it.
Ok, so if you have a restriction on touching a man’s hand, don’t touch it.
Too late! I have already thrust my word penis in her face!
Ew.
(Although “word penis” would be an interesting band name.)
This is the interesting thing about this argument, though. With handshaking, you don’t actually try to touch the person. I actually agree with ZPG that it’s not appropriate for a man to touch a woman in a business situation. I would not want a colleague to put his arm around me, or pat my shoulder, or that kind of thing, because then I’d have to make a big deal of it to make it not happen. But handshaking isn’t a touch, it’s a gesture, and it’s easy to politely turn it down without having to actually BE TOUCHED.
well, it’s kind of hard to shake somebody’s hand without touching them. Handshaking is a kind of touch that’s endemic in our society so it’s not usually considered touching the way that, say, putting your arm around someone is, but it’s still touching. And you’re right. If somebody holds out their hand to be shaked, you can always not respond, but then your lack of response becomes an issue.
Scenario 1:
Person A: : proffers a hand to shake:
Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
Scenario 2:
Person A: Would you shake my hand?
Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
Yes, I can see how not shaking someone’s hand is completely different if they proffer it to you versus asking. Oh, wait…
No, no, see, the first scenario goes like this I think:
Person A: :proffers a hand to shake:
Person B: Excuse me, I prefer not to shake hands.
Person A: :rapes person B:
I guess I just conveniently glossed over that part because I’d prefer to be blinded to the reality of the situation by my own disgusting culture.
We had a lot of visitors in the office today; brb, I think I need to go cry from the trauma of getting gang-raped.
Actually it could easily go like this.
Asshole proffers hand
ZPG:I don’t shake hands with men.
Asshole: What’s the matter you think you’re better then me?
Bystander 1: Check out the asshole.
Bystander 2: An outsider, everyone knows ZPG has always been a very respectable woman
Bystander 1: I’ll get one of my kids to lift his wallet on the way out.