How do ultra-orthodox Jews handle the whole "menstruation women" prohibitions?

In My Humble Opinion
161

That sentence is a syntactic nightmare. I’ll try to address the point I think you’re trying to make:

A handshake is not a sexual gesture. For most Americans, it is a way of greeting a casual or business acquaintance. As a woman who works in the American corporate world, I would be incredibly offended if I were treated in any way differently just because I have a vagina. That includes having the door held for me, not shaking my hand, calling me “dear,” etc.

I appreciate that your culture feels differently. I think your culture is stupid, but you’re entitled to it. What you are *not *entitled to do is set back women’s rights for *everyone else *by sixty years because you have a personal taboo about being touched in a *non-sexual *way that is *culturally acceptable *in the country you *choose *to live in.

Declining to shake hands–either by giving a negative response to a verbal request or by giving a negative response to a gesture–is a rejection. Of the gesture. Not of the person. No one is saying you’re rejecting the person by refusing to shake hands with them–simply rejecting their gesture.

Please point out *a single post *in this thread where anyone claims that you *must *shake hands or shut up about it. It’s a strawman.

And yet, *you *want to impose *your *minority beliefs on every other man and woman in this country, directly in the face of our established customs.

I refer you to my example upthread. A strictly observant conservative Muslim man may be uncomfortable dealing with women he’s not related to who dress in ways that would not be appropriate in his culture. Do you think my female coworkers and I should have to wear hijab in the office in case we get a Muslim client?

You’re the only person seeing insults and arguments. The problem lies with anyone who takes offense with a refusal to shake hands; not with the person making the offer.

There are so many things wrong with this, I’m not even sure where to start. A few points off the top of my head…

1.) There’s a huge difference between sexual and non-sexual contact.
2.) Proffering a hand is an established way of offering a handshake. Proffering a penis is not an established way of offering sexual intercourse.
3.) A hand being held out is considered nowhere in the U.S. to be crude, inappropriate, or illegal. An exposed penis is.

Here’s a better analogy. We’re sitting next to each other on a plane. As we start descending to land, I pull a stick of gum out of my purse to give me something to chew to help pop my ears. I proffer the pack towards you so that, if you like, you can also take a piece. Are you *horribly offended *because I didn’t ask if I could offer you the gum?

162

If that’s true, then any contact between a woman and a man is an “opening wedge.” So perhaps you should make things easier on everyone and just lock yourself in your house and let your male relatives conduct all your business for you. Or, better yet, move to a country where that’s all you’re allowed to do, where you can be protected in the way you want to be protected without infringing on *my *freedoms.

Again, for the billionth fucking time, THIS IS NOT ABOUT *FORCING *HANDSHAKES, AND IT NEVER WAS.

163

OK, there’s a lot wrong with this analogy, but I’ll start with two of the most obvious problems.

  1. It’s not exactly considered polite for a man to ask a woman if she wants to have sex with him, especially given no prior relationship. You expect men to ask for permission to shake your hand upon meeting you, yet I’m sure you would be startled if he was to ask if he could have sex with you upon meeting you, unless maybe you are a hooker.

  2. Even in your culture, I’m sure handshakes and sex are not considered an equal level of intimacy. If it were, you should be allowed to have sex with someone other than your husband, provided it was through a sheet and wearing a condom. After all, you are allowed to shake hands with gloves on.

So, once we’ve established that there are different expectations and different rules of courtesy regarding offers of handshakes and offers of sex, then your analogy pretty much falls apart.

164

IF THE ASSHOLE HAS HIS HAND OUT HE IS TRYING TO FORCE HER TO TOUCH HIM. There is no other way around it. If he didn’t want to force her to touch him, he would ask verbally the way every polite person has since the beginning of time.

165

Nope. There’s no “forcing.” He just stuck his hand out into the empty air. He forces nothing.

166

Actually, if he’s one that feels he has a right to force a woman to shake his hand, I would not at all be surprised if (and when) in the next few sentences he sexually propositions me. And I can understand how a man might believe a woman whose first response to his presences would be touch him could think the woman was a hooker. Doesn’t mean he can rape her, but proposition yeah, I think touching, unless rendering aide, implies sex.

Yes and no, in some ways shaking hands in public is more intimate. It’s about friendship and alliances. In front of witnesses, it usually means a deal is struck and can’t be undone. There is definitely more symbolic weight than sex. Sex is well, just sex, and for couples in arranged marriages the scenario of a man asking for sex from a woman who he hasn’t said more than a few words to (though their hands were joined to solemnize the marriage) is the norm.

167

He’s creating an awkward situation and by implying that the woman should touch him he is trying to force his way. In relationships where there is an unequal balance of power, such as boss to employee, is certainly threatening. A lot of sexual harassment isn’t spoken. It’s in gestures.

168

ZPG I can understand your POV regarding feeling pressured into physical contact. My dad is probably an un-diagnosed narcissist and has absolutely no regard for anyone else’s comfort regarding touches. He always wants hugs … big long, close-bodied, back slapping, rib squeezing hugs that go on for two minutes and it can get very uncomfortable. He doesn’t notice or respond to subtle cues, like the other person trying to pull away or step back, and acts slighted when you do. It’s creepy.

While a handshake is obviously not on the same level of personal space invasion as that, I get it.

169

OK, see now you’ve proven the opposing argument. I actually agree with you that if a man FORCES a woman to shake his hand, it wouldn’t entirely surprise me if that was leading to a sexual proposition. Given that women in business settings all over the US of A shake hands with men every day, and those men virtually never follow up with a proposition or believe her to be a prostitute, then what they are doing must ergo not be, in fact, FORCING women to touch them, but rather they are operating under a completely different social convention.

I agree that shaking hands can have symbolic weight, though in MY culture, sex also has symbolic weight (perhaps this is where our cultures differ). But in any case, your point doesn’t refute my point, which was that sex and handshaking are different, as you acknowledge above. So…as I said, different social convention, different expectations, different rules of courtesy. Not to mention that you are also acknowledging that handshakes and sex are two completely different acts with different social implications. So, your analogy and your arguments fail all the way around.

170

This thread gets more hilarious with every post.

171

This thread is nearly perfect, but I would like to know what kanic bird thinks about the handshake people.

172

As rhe OP, I am amazed at what this thread has become.

In my last office, I created a simple rule: If you wouldn’t want someone of the same sex doing it to you, don’t do it to someone of the opposite sex. I would not mind a woman offering to shake my hand. I would mind her grabbig my boob. I don’t mind compliments on my clothes. I do mind observations about my boobs.

It covered most situations.

173

So, it’s your belief that all men walk around thinking that the 99.99% of American women who happily shake hands are hookers?

Weird.

Almost as weird as you believing that everyone else should comport themselves to cater to the weird beliefs of that 0.01% who think as you do.

174

ZPG is Roma, which I’m not sure she stated in this thread or another. So take that into account with everything else. I assume this will be a top 10 best SDMB thread ever.

175

Actually, one of our human resources officers uses a similiar equation he calls the gay test in anti-sexual harassment program. He tells the men to run whatever they are thinking about saying or doing to a female co-worker through the following filter: How would you feel if a gay man said or did the same thing to you? It works wondering at creating a better working environment.

176

Sexually indiscrimate, not hookers. I sincerely hope that is not the case though considering the prevalence of rape and sexual harassment I would not be surprised if something like that is working in more than a few men’s heads. It’s my belief that if you meet strangers of the opposites sex and immediately start touching them in a social way, they are at least justified in thinking you wouldn’t be opposed to an invitation to casual sex.

177

No, he’s not. If he is *grabbing *her hand, he is trying to force her to touch him. If he is *proffering *his hand, he is offering that she may *choose *to reach out and shake it. If you think that proffering a hand is forcing someone to touch you, then you logically must also think that asking if someone would shake your hand is forcing them to touch you, because they serve the same. fucking. purpose.

I notice that you *still *haven’t answered my question about hijab. Big fucking shock. So, I’ll ask for the third time:

Do you think I should have to wear a head scarf, long sleeves, long pants/skirt, etc. any time I leave the house in case I encounter a conservative Muslim man who would be uncomfortable at seeing my head, arms, legs, etc.?

178

Zealot, I thought of another question for you: do you think that when two men shake hands, that one of them is planning to rape the other one?

(Men do rape other men, y’know.)

Do you think that if a VP gives some middle-management type a heartier-than-comfortable squeeze, in front of the rest of the executive crowd at some meeting, the middle-management guy needs to fear an imminent rape?

179

It depends on the circumstances. If they do it upon greating each other there’s a lot of variables and possibilities I would have to consider. Perhaps they are relatives. Many men do not hug each other in public. Perhaps they are very old friends. Perhaps they think it appropriate to shake strangers’ hands which is a usefull clue to someones personality. Perhaps one is touching the other to create a false sense of friendship with the other as a way of setting him up for a con job. If the men are shaking hands during a business meeting, I would probably think their meeting is over and they have reached a deal that both of them have agreed to honor. If they are in the middle of a gay pride parade, I wouldn’t think rape, but I would consider it a possibility that one may be sexually attracted to the other. There are a lot of different variables.

The VP that gives the middle-management type a hearter-than-comfortable squeeze is probably up to something bad for the middle-management type and is a jerk to work for. It may not be physical rape, but heartier than comfortable is definitely a power move to make the lesser ranked individual feel inferior.

180

His being uncomfortable with your body can be averted by him not looking at you. His demanding you cover yourself would be the same kind of intrusive active asshole gesture a man makes by sticking out his hand at a woman presuming she wants to shake hands with him. Seriously, if a man is going to be allowed to stick his hand out at me with the presumption that I welcome the chance to touch strangers, we might as well let the Muslim guy through a blanket over you on the presumption that you would hid your body if given the opportunity. Instead, the proper thing to do is respect each other cultures and not try to impose your own on others by intimidation. If handshake is such a valueable, important gesture to a man, he can ask verbally like a civilized being, not make gestures like a caveman.