… please tell me you were wearing gloves.
No. And I even took off my coat and scarf once I got to the office.
It’s also possible that I may have made eye contact with one or more people.
Good grief, you slut, did you shake their hands too?
- looks around *
Awww, did **Zealot **run away?
Hey now, I’m a loose woman, but I’d never sink to *that *level!
How? By shouting out “Hey, I’m on my period!” Hell, I’m not a religious zealot, and I’d be embarassed. TMI, much?
How was the guy acting? Was he being a blowhard, or just saying he was from such and such church?
In some cultures, people bow instead of shaking heads. Do you find that insulting?
Having nearly been raped more than a few times, I find comparing a method I have found very successful as a first filtering level for dangerous men rude to be deeply insulting. Since when is it rude to look out for yourself?
It’s rather common in multi-ethnic communities where people of different cultures meet and do business. I have been asked the question numerous times at an introduction usually it’s phrased sometime along the lines “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” (most recently said to me by a Pakistani jeweler). Of course, the proper reply is to bow one’s head slightly and say, “Only when meeting other women, but if we make the deal, I can shake hands wearing my gloves.” Jeweler bowed back and we proceded to argue over the price of silver rings until we reached a satisfactory agreement. We didn’t shake hands though. We had coffee and sweets.
American business culture could use some multi-culturalism if it’s going to survive. America in general should be more accepting of different cultures. My community, the many Muslim communities, the Orthodox Jews, the Koreans, we are all citizens just like you. We pay taxes. We build businesses. We generate revenue. Our kids go to college and get the education America needs to compete in the global marketplace. We have the right to decent treatment in our own country.
His asking “Is it the custom of your people for women to shake hands upon meeting?” is exactly the same as me offering my hand. You rejected him just like you could reject me. If I get butthurt that’s my fault, not yours. You are expecting us to ask to ask to shake hands.
I am expecting you not to presume every woman you encounter wants to touch flesh with you. Dangling out a hand assumes the practice is okay with the woman. Asking before you raise the hand implies you want to cause the least hassle to all parties. I did not reject him (whatever that means you seem to think people have to be intimate buddies to be civil and do business). By asking the question and keeping his hands at his side, the man created an environment in which rejection did not even factor into our meeting.
There’s no particular obligation to get one’s period (and to thus be subject to the rules and regulations around that). Different groups approach birth control differently, but my impression is that in almost every Orthodox group, at least some engaged women will go on birth control pills, to manipulate their cycles in order to make sure that they’re not menstruating (or in the week right afterwards) at the wedding. In an ultra-Orthodox group, they will certainly not stay on them after the wedding, but manipulating periods isn’t the issue, it’s opposition to birth control.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, in the Orthodox world, no matter how ultra, worries about most matters of ritual purity nowadays, including sitting on the chairs of menstruating women. It’s an issue that’s only relevant when there’s a Temple, which there hasn’t been for nearly two millenia.
ZPG Zealot, couple of questions for you:
You keep referencing men being offended/pushy when you reject their handshake. I’m wondering how you react–exact phrasing, please–to an offered hand. When you meet someone and they offer to shake your hand, are you giving them an “I think you’re a repulsive rapist” look and then a nice lecture on how rude/insensitive to your culture they’re being? Because I just can’t *imagine *how that might get a negative reaction from people who were only trying to be polite and inclusive to begin with.
You’ve mentioned a couple of times that you’ve been fired from jobs for refusing handshakes. Is it possible that they were looking for a reason to fire you because they thought you were insane, condescending, overly sensitive, and a bad match for the company? Just a thought.
I simply say it’s against my religious beliefs to have physical contact with a man other than my husband. On numerous occasions I have had to listen to Christian fundie nutbags badger me on how “That’s not what Jesus said” (As if I care.) There are certain strands of American male that have a problem with that, probably the same white trash creeps that tell random women to smile.
Why does everyone in America have to start asking if it’s okay to shake your hand? Why isn’t it equally acceptable for you to simply politely refuse a proffered hand?
You’re the equivalent of a conservative Muslim man insisting that *all *women in the U.S. should start wearing hijab.
Offering you a hand is decent treatment. Insisting that you shake it is rude.
For the vast majority of American women, a handshake with anyone, male or female, is not a problem. You are in the extreme minority. You are welcome to maintain the standards of your own culture, but you shouldn’t expect everyone else to stop offering handshakes to all women just because you, personally, don’t like it. There’s nothing stopping you from politely rejecting the handshake.
No, it causes the least hassle to you, personally, and other people who don’t shake hands. Who are a tiny minority in U.S. culture. It causes *massive *hassle for *everyone else *who has no problem with shaking hands.
No he didn’t. You *rejected *him… verbally instead of physically. That’s the only difference. A proffered hand is just a physical offer versus a verbal one. It’s just as simple for you to tell someone you don’t shake hands when they offer you a hand as it is for you to do it when they ask you if they can shake your hand. The only person the restriction you purports benefits is yourself, and the minority of women like you; it causes problems for everyone else, and it *actively offends *many other women like me.
Why it offends you that a man would wait for an invitation to touch your body is bizarre? You are probably the first woman I have ever heard of that was offended by being treated politely. I did not reject the Pakastani gentlemen I mentioned earlier. I made the business deal with him (heck, I’ve recommended him to others). Declining to shake hands with someone is not rejecting them. It’s declining to press your flesh against them. And any sane society respects the right of a person not to be touched against their will. The whole idea behind etiquette is to create an environment where people can interact respecting each others beliefs not imposing their own on others. When a man sticks his hand out it’s an invitation to a confrontation, a confrontation which could be avoided. In order to violate her moral beliefs a woman may have to reject him. Hand shaking is one area were the older etiquette should be perserved. It facilitates communication and tolerance between cultures instead of leading to insults and arguments.
I suppose a man unzipping his pants and holding out his penis is then an acceptable why of asking for sex with you after all it’s just a physical offer versus a verbal one. Sticking out a hand implies a lot more than an offer. It’s an expectation, one which a man has no right to make of a woman.
I <3 this thread.
Seriously, all you are doing is giving a sexual harasser an opening wedge to use against women. They try to grab our hands because (finally) they can be fired for grabbing our asses). Violence against women doesn’t arise in a vacuum. It’s part of a culture meme that it’s all right to sacrifice women’s bodies for male comfort. The first step in changing that is the principle that you do not touch someone without their permission (*baring of course necessary medical and life-saving aid) or make them touch you.
As near as I can tell, this is where our whole, um, disagreement lies.
Most of us - women AND men - do NOT see an offered hand as any sort of invitation to any sort of confrontation. Maybe you do, but I don’t, and 99.9% of the folks on this board, and in our society (we talkin’ US or Europe here, right?) don’t as well.
When you say “invitation to a confrontation” I picture some drunk dude trying to start a bar fight by offering to shake hands. 
If a man is really and truly a sexual harasser, he doesn’t need a “let’s shake hands!” scenario to go for it and try to take what he wants. It’s not like not shaking hands will magically protect you from anything.