Come to think of it, I know for sure that there were Muslim women I knew in college who would shake hands, hold hands, or dance with men they weren’t related to. So…what was it that’s wrong with offering hand to be shaken, again?
Those women would have represented a very, very small minority within the Muslim community much like the minority that one could offer a beer or a pork sandwich to and it not be an obvious insult. What’s wrong with offering a hand to be shaken? It’s insulting to women whose cultures do not condone physical contact with the opposite sex. It’s insulting to people whose cultures don’t consider hand shaking a casual thing, but a formal gesture of agreement. It’s the equivalent of shouting “Merry Christmas” at everyone and sulking because you get told to screw off when you know good and well at least some of the people you bothered may not celebrate that holiday. But who cares about politeness anymore, the culture with the most douchebag members gets to plow over everybody else.
I don’t know if I take your word for it that in the US those women would have represented a very, very small minority within the Muslim community, especially in the microcosm culture of a college campus. And as far as being insulting…in countries like this one with a huge and diverse population, there are many ways in which cultures clash and something that’s insulting to one group isn’t insulting to another. It’s the job of all of us to do what we can to understand these differences, learn from each other, and not get offended when they don’t line up. You know, for every one woman who finds it insulting to be offered a hand, I can show you probably a thousand people (in this country) who find it insulting for their handshake to be rejected. So, why should one set of cultural mores and sensibilities be respected above another, conflicting one? Any polite person would not take offense and withdraw the hand immediately upon being told the person can’t shake hands, and remember not to offer a hand to that person again. Likewise, a person who is socializing within a culture that is not their own and is offered a gesture that is polite within that culture needs to remember that no insult is intended. It’s not really very hard.
Once again I have never experienced one of the hand shake people being the polite person not taking offense. They have all acted like jerks which makes me think a.) that it’s more of a power thing and violating someone else than a friendly gesture and b.) that hitting them over the head with the old rules is probably the only thing that might force them through shame into acting better. It’s not really very hard to remember you take into consideration that some people don’t touch the opposite gender and wait for a woman to extend her hand. If our society can advance to the point that we don’t call black people niggers or expect Jews to live in segregated ghettos why is it so hard to understand that women (or come to think about it either gender) have the right to go about their lives without being pressured to touch strangers.
A. Anyone who pressures you is a jerk
B. Not everyone offering to shake hands is pressuring people
C. Acting as though everyone offering to shake your hand is pressuring you is being a jerk.
I mean, everyone? Every single one, when you’re the only person in the thread to make that claim? Sometimes when all your relationships are soured the same way, it’s time to look at the behavior of the one person who’s been in all those relationships (i.e., you.). Maybe they’re not all pressuring you, maybe your sensitivity is set a notch too high for working in a secular professional environment.
Also sticking out your hand to a stranger is active. It’s initiating an action. The hand shaker is essentially asking for whatever response he or she gets and has no right to complain about rejection. They wouldn’t have got rejected if they kept their hands at their sides. The non-hand shaker is blameless however. They have not tried to impose their culture on another rather they have been forced to defend themselves against the rude intrusion of another.
My university has a large multi-ethnic population. The unwritten rule is always wait for a women to extend her hand and it works perfectly at avoiding all the awkwardness and problems of so many people from so many different cultures workng together. It works so very perfectly, I think implementing it in business and the larger culture of America would eliminate a lot of misunderstandings and hatred among people. It’s in what I consider “white trash with money” style businesses were men assume they have the right to demand women shake their hands that I’ve had problems. I have worked for old money that still followed the old rules and there was never a problem as a result.
Sorry I haven’t read the entire thread, but I really need to comment on this whole handshaking thing.
I live in a part of the world with a VERY significant Muslem minority, and it is the Ettiquette here that you DO NOT offer to shake hands with a Malay woman first.
Now of corse in the real world it is well managed. First of all you would judge the lady - no head skarf - not that observant, which is ok to offer hand.
Head skarf = probably shouldn’t offer hand first.
In a business setting, I would normally be prepared first with a briefing on which people are and are not comfortable shaking hands.
While I think it is total bullshit, and needs to be fought on a macro level, there is no way in hell that I am going to make a business acquitance uncomfortable by pushing the matter on a personal level.
Those of you that are being so strident in calling it out also need to realise that there are, yaknow, actual other cultures and standards of behaviour in this world, and we don’t all operate on an American model
Hmmm…on this, I think someone screwed up.
To “interview the heae of a muslem student group” I assume should have been set up or facilitated by someone that knew about this restriction, but never properly briefed hubby not to offer hands.
If it was me in my role as PR it is imcumbent to properly brief both sides on what to expect, and if the offer had been made after the briefing, it is arseholish. If I had left it out of my briefing, I screwed up.
To point out he was a “pick-and-choose” Christian, following only certan parts of the Bible.
But…what about all these MEN who are uncomfortable with touching women who aren’t their wives? So it seems to be equally important for women not to offer their hands to men.
Also, I really think context matters.
Strictly observant muslim women make up an extremely small fragment of the American business community. I think it’s reasonable for an American businessman meeting someone new IN American AT an ordinary business setting (that is, at a meeting that isn’t specically set up to introduce people from another land/culture) to do the automatic extend a hand.
The other person is free to smile, shake his/her head, and say something along the lines of “Sorry, I don’t shake hands, but I’m pleased to meet you, Joe.”
And, yes, if the person who extended the hand makes any kind of a fuss about it, THEN that person is a jerk. But simply behaving in accord with the local customs does NOT make you a would-be rapist.
I have observed that every man who is a rapist also breathes. Therefore, I cannot trust any man who is inhaling. Or exhaling, as that probably indicates that he has inhaled in the recent past.
Hrm, it’s been my experience that the men I know who respect women treat us with the same respect as the men they know–i.e., like human beings instead of delicate flowers that will wilt if you offer them a hand to shake along with everyone else in the room.
There is an almost infinite difference between someone who offers a handshake and someone who attempts to force a handshake. The former is absolutely acceptable in the U.S., because handshaking, especially in business situations, is a strong part of our culture–no matter whose hand you are offering to shake. The latter makes you a controlling asshole, **again ***regardless *of whose hand you are trying to force a shake of.
If only there were *some clue *in the name that could have given you even the slightest hint that this gym would be in any way affected by Jewish religious observances…
I believe you mean something so hilarious. And the answer is because it was hilarious.
I see no reason to doubt that **ZPGZ **is the gender she claims to be, nor why it would matter if she were not.
The wino street beggars and the illegal alien day-laborers in *my *neighborhood, on the other hand, know what apparently you do not: Islam is not a fucking monolith with 1.6 billion people who all affirm and practice the exact same set of beliefs and cultural mores.
So, which is it ZPGZ? You can’t have it both ways. On one hand, you’ve tried during your time here to present yourself as someone who’s had exceptional experiences in your life that have given you a unique level of insight that surpasses that of many of the rest of us. On the other hand, you continually report unsupported anecdotes as through they are facts reflexive of the absolute truth that is equally applicable to everyone.
Pick your stance already.
Shot From Guns, I hope you’re ready for a handshaking.
Yeah yeah, but they upped the closings for the year in January, after I was committed in a year-long contract. Plus they’re claiming to be competitive with other gyms in the area, yet remain closed a solid month out of the year. They’re not just a religious institution, they run a preschool and a gym that are both quite secular.
Anyways, over to the other handshaking thread…
Dear Shot From Guns, it’s not an issue of treating women like “delicate flowers”. The issue is treating women like independent fully conscious human beings who have the right not to be touched unless they want to be. If a man doesn’t want to be rejected for sticking out his hand. He should keep it at his side.
Ewwwwww, get away from me you gross Rapist McRapypants.
Why don’t men have a similar right? And how is it not respecting someone’s right not to be touched to *offer *a handshake?
No one here is arguing that you *must *shake a hand that’s offered, or that it’s not at least borderline creepy to try to insist that anyone–male or female–shake your hand. What we’re saying is that it’s *not *creepy to simply offer a hand to be shaken, when you’re offering that handshake to everyone else in the group–and, in fact, to offer a hand to anyone in a group *except *the women *is *insulting and unprofessional.
Not as long as there are still major power imbalances between men and women in corporate, academic, government, etc. hierarchies in America. Let’s face it, upper management which is largely male already has too many ways to intimidate their employees. This shouldn’t be one of them.
I like how you cherry-picked what to respond to.
How is it creepy or pushy to offer a handshake? A lot of the women I meet offer their hands first- are they trying to rape me (boy were they in for a surprise after I shook their hands!)?
Why is it that when we don’t respect your cultural beliefs and mores, simply by extending a hand for a handshake, we’re “douchebag” “jerk” “rapists” and “intimidating” “sexual predators” with “boundary issues” exhibiting “brutish behavior”, yet when you don’t respect our cultural beliefs and mores by shaking hands in an American professional business setting, you’re…what, exactly? And now you want all of us to change to some hypersensitive version on what works for you at your library where all handshaking is verboten? Sorry, hon, handshaking IS part of our culture, just as old as our country is. Why does your culture and your new way of doing things win out in our* country? If I go to Iraq, should I expect the men to start shaking my hand there? Heck, no! They already have their culture there, and if I go there, I’m going to do my best to follow it (so I won’t be going there.)
It’s not your basic point (no one should be forced to shake hands) that anyone’s arguing with. We agree with that, and we have accommodations for that *within *our culture of handshaking. It’s your ridiculous hyperbole and use of a very broad brush, with this insistence that *everyone *who’s *ever *tried to shake hands with you has been pushy about it when you’ve politely and clearly declined. Simply put, I don’t believe you.
*Collective “our”, as there are many Americans who are Muslims, of course.
Also, apparently Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia raped then-President G.W. Bush when he held his hand when they were walking around. Since, y’know, heterosexual men don’t *do *that in the U.S.