How do we end American Imperialism?

[XT]

@Ravenman

The invasion of Iraq, duh! But I’m pretty sure that isn’t MrDibble’s point.

I was hoping to tease out his point or at least get him to be specific since he seems oddly reluctant to do so in this thread for some reason.

I suppose Iraq is kind-a sort-a an example of bypassing the UNSC, since the US didn’t ask for a vote which, presumably even the idiots in the Bush administration knew they would lose. But that was an option that isn’t available to most non-UNSC members and I don’t see it as demonstrating how placing ones country under ‘UN protection’ is bolstered by this argument. Mainly, ISTM, the recent Hague ruling wrt China and the Philippines regarding the South China Sea is more indicitive of the sorts of ‘protection’ available from the UN.

[Little_Nemo]

@MrDibble

You may need to re-read Chapter VII, then. “Requires”, no, but then I didn’t say that.

Thanks for telling me what I just said. Now can you move on and address the question. How does a country place itself under UN protection?

[cmkeller]

Human Action:

I feel like you’re undervaluing all the work communists did to fight fascism. The U.S. were late to that particular party.

The communists had a treaty with the fascists and collaborated with them. They only fought them after the fascists turned on them.

[Little_Nemo]

@XT

Mainly, ISTM, the recent Hague ruling wrt China and the Philippines regarding the South China Sea is more indicitive of the sorts of ‘protection’ available from the UN.

Personally, I feel the protection the UN offered on this issue is equivalent to what the Supreme Court offered in Worcester v. Georgia.

[Little_Nemo]

@Human_Action

I feel like you’re undervaluing all the work communists did to fight fascism. The U.S. were late to that particular party.

In 1940, the United States was sending supplies to Britain and the Soviet Union was sending supplies to Nazi Germany.

[Human_Action]

@cmkeller

Human Action:

The communists had a treaty with the fascists and collaborated with them. They only fought them after the fascists turned on them.

@Little_Nemo

In 1940, the United States was sending supplies to Britain and the Soviet Union was sending supplies to Nazi Germany.

That’s a rather blinkered view, the conflict between communism and fascism amounted to more than the state of diplomatic relations between Germany and the USSR:

Spanish Civil War

Communist Party of Germany

Italian Communist Party

Anti-Fascism in the UK

And when World War 2 did ignite, of course, 20 million Soviets died. Crediting the US alone with the defeat of fascism is just nonsensical propaganda, totally at odds with the facts.

[cmkeller]

Human Action:

And when World War 2 did ignite, of course, 20 million Soviets died. Crediting the US alone with the defeat of fascism is just nonsensical propaganda, totally at odds with the facts.

Oh, I wouldn’t ever credit the US alone for DEFEATING facism, but I would give only the US credit for STANDING UP to fascism. The USSR deserves no moral credit for any opposition to fascism that their military executed. They were perfectly happy to accommodate fascists as long as they paid them sufficient tribute.

[Human_Action]

@cmkeller

Human Action:

Oh, I wouldn’t ever credit the US alone for DEFEATING facism, but I would give only the US credit for STANDING UP to fascism.

Not France, or the UK, or the Republicans in Spain, or the Slovenes, or the residents of fascist nations that opposed their governments, many fighting and dying in the process? Just the US?

Whatever world you want to live in, I guess.

The USSR deserves no moral credit for any opposition to fascism that their military executed. They were perfectly happy to accommodate fascists as long as they paid them sufficient tribute.

“Stalin’s foreign policy” does not equal “Communism”.

[Little_Nemo]

@Human_Action

That’s a rather blinkered view

I’ll admit my view of history is blinkered by the facts.

[up_the_junction]

@cmkeller

Human Action:
Oh, I wouldn’t ever credit the US alone for DEFEATING facism, but I would give only the US credit for STANDING UP to fascism. The USSR deserves no moral credit for any opposition to fascism that their military executed. They were perfectly happy to accommodate fascists as long as they paid them sufficient tribute.

The USA essentially ignored fascism until Hitler declared war. Well, the USA ignored everything it couldn’t make a profit on.

[Human_Action]

@Little_Nemo

I’ll admit my view of history is blinkered by the facts.

It is not a fact that “communism” consists entirely of the Soviet government, no more and no less.

[Ravenman]

@up_the_junction

The USA essentially ignored fascism until Hitler declared war. Well, the USA ignored everything it couldn’t make a profit on.

Good point. I will never forget the newsreel footage of FDR saying that there will be peace in our time.

[orcenio]

@Ravenman

Good point. I will never forget the newsreel footage of FDR saying that there will be peace in our time.

If the UK was asleep at the switch for Hitler/WW2 then the US was in a deep deep coma.

[Dissonance]

@Human_Action

That’s a rather blinkered view, the conflict between communism and fascism amounted to more than the state of diplomatic relations between Germany and the USSR:

I’d add to what you’ve written that diplomatic relations between the USSR and Germany were rather more complex than the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and Barbarossa. In 1938 Stalin was ready to come to Czechoslovakia’s aid when the UK and France decided to hand the country over to Germany.

Meanwhile, a new Czechoslovak cabinet, under General Jan Syrový, was installed and on 23 September a decree of general mobilization was issued. The Czechoslovak army, modern and possessing an excellent system of frontier fortifications, was prepared to fight. The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia’s assistance. Beneš, however, refused to go to war without the support of the Western powers, because he feared democracy would be over and communism would ensue in Czechoslovakia if they accept help from the Soviet Union only.

…

Joseph Stalin was also upset by the results of the Munich conference. The Soviets, who had a mutual military assistance treaty with Czechoslovakia, felt betrayed by France, who also had a mutual military assistance treaty with Czechoslovakia. The British and French, however, mostly used the Soviets as a threat to dangle over the Germans. Stalin concluded that the West had actively colluded with Hitler to hand over a Central European country to the Nazis, causing concern that they might do the same to the Soviet Union in the future, allowing the partition of the USSR between the western powers and the fascist Axis. This belief led the Soviet Union to reorient its foreign policy towards a rapprochement with Germany, which eventually led to the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1939.[31]

[septimus]

@Dissonance

I’d add to what you’ve written that diplomatic relations between the USSR and Germany were rather more complex than the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and Barbarossa. In 1938 Stalin was ready to come to Czechoslovakia’s aid when the UK and France decided to hand the country over to Germany.

Yes, Britain and France (despite U.S. advice) had rejected U.S.S.R.'s offers of alliance. Note also that the Hitler-Stalin Pact worked out in one way: when Hitler attacked Russia, he started from the middle of Poland against trained Russian soldiers rather than from Poland’s Eastern border with Russia unblooded.

[DerekMichaels00]

@Human_Action

I feel like you’re undervaluing all the work communists did to fight fascism. The U.S. were late to that particular party.

Right, like how Stalin actively worked on Hitler side until not only in taking apart Europe in 1939, but appeasing him too; Stalin was no better than Daladier and Chamberlain. Plus, fascists learned their social techniques of complete way of life from the communists, and had ranks of many former communists (like Mussolini). I’d also bet fascism had never come on the scene except for the extreme reaction and fear of Bolshevism in the time after the Bolshevik Revolution. That’s why so many were willing to accept it. No communism; no fascism.

@Little_Nemo

In 1940, the United States was sending supplies to Britain and the Soviet Union was sending supplies to Nazi Germany.

and

@cmkeller

Human Action:
The communists had a treaty with the fascists and collaborated with them. They only fought them after the fascists turned on them.

well said. Also, does anyone not realize that the only reason the USSR lost so many troops in WWII was because Stalin purged the army from 1939-1941, and killed those who warned of Germany’s plan to stab Stalin in the back as “war agitators?” Also, the Bolsheviks got lend-lease on the Eastern front.

@up_the_junction

Well, the USA ignored everything it couldn’t make a profit on.

Sounds like that’s straight out of socialist worker magazine.

[Jragon]

Are the casualties of the Great Purge generally included in statistics of how many the USSR lost in WW2? Serious question

[Little_Nemo]

@Human_Action

It is not a fact that “communism” consists entirely of the Soviet government, no more and no less.

The only part of communism that mattered in 1940 was, in fact, the Soviet government. If you had taken all the communists who weren’t aligned with Stalin and gathered all their power together, they would have had about as much capability of doing anything to the Nazi regime as an Amazon rain forest tribe.

[MrDibble]

@XT

What does ‘Place yourself under UN protection’ mean, in practical terms? How would that work?

The way it works in all the places that currently have UN peacekeepers or have had them in the past.

And if it’s a viable alternative to being forced to gravitate to one of the regional superpowers or, worse yet, the US, why don’t more countries do it?

BEcause usually the countries doing the invading are UNSC members.
Bear in mind, I’m not talking about how things currently work, I’m talking about how they should work.

What examples are you thinking of where the UNSC has been bypassed?

Any time that there’s been an emergency special session, that’s overruling one or more members of the SC - so Suez, Namibia, various even the ongoing Tenth ESS are end-runs around the SC.

@Little_Nemo

How does a country place itself under UN protection?

By asking for UN intervention. The end result would likely be something like the Korean War - a UN-sanctioned military action, not a US one, even though the US played the biggest role.

[MrDibble]

@Little_Nemo

The only part of communism that mattered in 1940 was, in fact, the Soviet government. If you had taken all the communists who weren’t aligned with Stalin and gathered all their power together, they would have had about as much capability of doing anything to the Nazi regime as an Amazon rain forest tribe.

…because the second-largest bloc had its hands full with the Nazis’ Japanese allies and its own KMT opposition. I know they were allies of the Soviets but they certainly didn’t fall under Soviet government.