The Iraq war and American empire

In a separate MPSIMS thread, Cisco asked why the US should have the prerogative to overthrow regimes it doesn’t agree with. In response, I cited this NYT column, which argues that we are the new world empire; as such, we have a responsibility to maintain order in the world; and we shouldn’t be shy about shaping that order in our own image.

A few interesting excerpts:

There may be a couple of debate-worth topics here, and I thought I’d throw this out to see what SDMB think.

Are we becoming an empire?

Should we become an empire?

If not, is there anything we can do about it?

If so, how should we proceed?

(Non-US dopers, please forgive the US-centric perspective of my OP–but your input will be even more invaluable.)

I was brought up with a mighty sense of fair-play. In elementary school we got “citizen” grades, and being a “good citizen” was, in my young mind, as important as getting good marks in the various acedemic subjects that were taught. We were encouraged to excell in team sports, but we were taught to accept defeat gracefully. In other words, “It’s not whether you win or lose; it’s how you play the game.” This is in direct opposition to General Patton’s admonition to win (at least, it appeared in his rhetoric) at any cost.

For a long time there was another superpower to balance us: the Soviet Union. We spent much of our time, national treasure, and lives balancing them. We kept each other in check. The USSR tried to put nuclear missiles in Cuba and we resolved that in our favour. We went to Vietnam (with other countries, of course) and the Communists won the day. We built relationships with South American dictators, and the Soviets built relations in Africa. I’m glossing over a lot, but I think you can see my point.

Then the USSR crumbled. We were left alone as the superpower. To touch on “Being an imperial power, however, is more than being the most powerful nation or just the most hated one”, it is a fact that the U.S. is geographically distanced from most other nations. In Europe the countries are smaller and closer together, have different languages, and had a history of wars with each other. Over the centuries many of their disagreements have been sorted out. Others have not. But being in such close proximity with each other, I think that they’ve learned to cooperate more-or-less civilly.

And then there’s the United States. We’re comparatively isolated. We entered WWI in 1917 and the war was over in 1918. We joined WWII in 1941, after the German regime had been battling since 1938. While it took four more years, America’s industrial might and isolation from the aggressive nations that protected her from most direct attacks ensured the Allied victory. Americans came to believe that we won the wars. Certainly we were among the victors, and certainly we contributed much to the victory. So Americans tend to think “we saved the world.”

Cut to the Cold War. The USSR could have overrun Europe, had it not been for the threat of American retaliation. I think it was necessary for us to be a superpower, in order to counter the Soviets. We “saved the world for Democracy”.

So we have attitude. We look at our mostly-Christian country and the values of fair-play we were taught as children, and we say, “There is a difference between right and wrong. We know what’s right, so we must educate the rest of the world as to what is right and fair.” We see how Japan treats us unfairly in their markets. We see how Europeans are loth to join us in “educating” other nations. We don’t understand why people nations in the Middle-East hate us. And yet we engage in unfair trade practices. We don’t take the time to explore other people’s points of view. We don’t take the time to work out our differences with other peoples.

Americans want peace. We want people to like us. We want to be comfortable. Being a Capitalist nation, we feel it is our right to buy what we want. So people in other countries get exploited? Well, they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps just like we did! Why should we worry that people in other countries don’t get enough to eat? It’s their problem.

And other countries see that as an arrogant attitude. We interfere in their internal problems (in our own self-interest) and that makes them dislike us. Some people retaliate with violence, which makes us more resolute, which leads to more violence. Some people (not I) think that the WTC attacks were justified because it was the only way they could fight back against this country that was interfering in their affairs. While I don’t agree, it did get our attention.

I don’t think we started out trying to become an empire. I think that without really noticing it, we have come to empire step by step. And now that we are an empire, we seem to be becoming more imperial in response to those who don’t like us being an empire. It’s a vicious circle.

What can we do about it? Well, we can accept our role. Or we can examine ourselves and our values and step back. Remembering that Americans tend to take the easiest path, which path is easier? We don’t want to “kill Muslims”. We want the violence to stop. And we’ll kill to stop the violence! (Aside: I once talked to an anti-abortion rights protester who said he would kill to save a life.)

This is what I think we want: We want people to stop killing each other. We want to have all the oil we can burn. We want to sit on our buts and watch TV. We want plenty to eat. We want people to like us. We want people to buy our products. We want peace on our terms. We want instant gratification.

What we don’t want is people telling us what to do. A lot of people do things they know is wrong just to show people who tell them not to do it that they can. We don’t want people messing with our friends. Israel is our friend, and there are some people that would like to see its destruction.

So I think we sort-of bumbled into Empire, and now that we’re here we don’t exactly know how to handle it. Should we be an empire? There are advantages and disadvantages. The advantages include often getting our own way. The disadvantages include other people not getting their own way.

How do we proceed? First, we – every American citizen – must come to understand that we are citizens of the planet. We need to change our ways of doing things so that we are environmentally responsible, even if it means some pain on our part. We need to assist other countries to become good environmental citizens. This will be costly, but by helping to improve standards of living, people will feel less exploited.

Concurrently, we need to understand that we are only one nation in a world of nations. A fundementalist Christian may not agree with a fundamentalist Muslim, but they both exist and have a right to exist. Different cultures must respect one another even if they don’t agree. So it is with other nations. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” If you don’t like your neighbour’s house, you don’t go over and remodel it. You accept that your neighbours have different tastes. In return, your neighbours accept your house.

In short, we should take the initiative to extend the olive branch. We should say, “I don’t agree with you, but let’s work things out.”

But what about Iraq? Sadam is a madman. I believe that he believes that if he has NBC weapons, the U.S. will back down. The U.S. believes that NBC weapons in his hands are a Very Bad Thing. How do we neutralize Sadam? President Bush & Co. have decided that a direct confronttion is the only solution. I think that such an action should not be taken unilatterally. If we are an empire, we should try to be a benevolent one. This means that we need to convince other nations that our path is correct. We also need to accept that other nations may not agree. Do we, then, go off on our own? I don’t think so. We need to work together.

But this doesn’t answer how we should deal with Sadam. We may very well have to initiate military action. But I think this should be a last resort, and not one of the first options. I think there is still time for diplomacy. I read on Drudge yesterday that other Arab nations may ask Sadam to step down in order to prevent a war. Will he? Probably not. But I think Sadam is more concerned with his own life and wealth than he is with his country. Let’s give diplomacy a chance – spearheaded by other nations, especially Arab ones. We can obliterate Iraq. We can kill the whole world if we want to. But I don’t think that’s a very good first option.

Disclaimer:
I’ve taken a couple of breaks while writing this. I know I’ve lost the thread in a couple of places, but I think this is a very complex issue. Also, I think I’m better in give-and-take conversations than in stating an absolute position. My beliefs are subject to change based on new information. So I’ll try to put my position simply: I think that the U.S. should strive to get along with other nations, assist them and their peoples when possible, promote international understanding, and take the lead in environmental matters.

And now, let the ripping-apart begin…

By and large you’ve expressed laudible sentiments there, but I’d take issue with one thing: multiculturalism is an inherently Western conceit, and the very act of saying “we should all coexist and get along with one another” already injects a Western perspective into our dialogue with other cultures.

For example, how can we protect friends like Israel while also respecting bin Ladin’s fervent desire that we get the hell out of the Middle East?

This is what I think is interesting about the column I cited in the OP and the issues it addresses. In MBA-speak, the choices we make as an empire instead of as an individual nation carry a much higher opportunity cost.

I overlooked that fact, and I agree. I read the link in one of the Cafe Society threads about The Two Towers. In it, John Rhys-Davies essentially said the same thing; that it’s hard to come to terms with people who are saying that the only terms they will accept is your own destruction.

I hesitate to talk about Israel, as I’m fairly ignorant of the situation there and there are people who may misconstrue anything I post. As I understand it, most Arabs in Israel are peaceful, law-abiding citizens. Palestinian radicals/extremeists/what-have-you will not live within those laws, Israel resonds quickly and often violently. Should Israel concede to their demands (i.e., stop being)? Or should they crush the revolt without mercy? Recently the U.S. sent a message to Israel telling them that we do not condone the way they are handling a situation (I don’t remember exactly what happened, or when). Both sides are to blame for the violence. I think that it is up to Israel, being the more powerful of the combatants, should try harder to make pease with the Palestinians. For one thing, I think they should stop moving onto Palestinian lands and cutting off innocent citizens from their fields. There was a story on NPR a couple of months ago about how Israelis decided to put a big wall around a town. This wall destroyed olive farms belonging to Palestinians who just wanted to make a living. The Israelis said, “Okay, all of this area is a free-fire zone.” So the crops that were not destroyed were cut off fromt he people who own them. This doesn’t seem fair. It seems to me that if there is to be peace, then the people who aren’t causing problems should have their property rights and livelihoods respected.

Again, I know little of the situation. These are just my impressions.

I think that Osama bin Laden was especially pissed off at the U.S. maintaining troops in Saudi Arabia, rather than the situation with Israel. The problem here is that the Saudi government isn’t asking us to leave. Unfortunately for people like bin Laden, it’s not a democracy. And unfortunately for him, ObL is a religious fundamentalist. People like him will never be satisfied in a modern world, whether or not the U.S. is in the country.

What I think it comes down to is this: Israel should try different methods to resolve the Palestinian situation. The Saud family should use their position to improve their people’s conditions. We can be friendly with other countries, and most people would not consider us “invaders”. I think we should use our country as an example that, while there are many, many problems, generally people with differing cultures and views can live together in relative harmony. “Leading by example”, as it were.

I don’t like the term American empire. We are not behaving in a way that is generally thought of as imperialistic. However, I will agree with the idea of the term hegemony. I think it’s fair to say that there is an American hegemony in the world. I know Chumpsky will be along any moment to tell me I’m wrong, how it’s an awful American empire and that I am sort of imperalistic capitalistic Schweinhund or something like that, but I don’t see it.

Yes, we do have overwhelming military power. Yes, we do have a tendency to stick our noses in everywhere. However, we do not conquer nations, make them into vassal states or part of America or whatever, overthrow international law (a misnomer in any case) whenever we feel like it, and so on.

On the other hand, there seems to be emerging a consistent neo-colonial model of American military intervention, British/French peacekeeping, and Swiss/Scandinavian humanitarian aid. This has happened in Kosovo, Afghanistan (I think), and soon will be applied in Kuwait. Not every empire looks like Genghis Khan’s worldwide Mongol tour.

Don’t be silly, of course we are. During the Cold War we overthrew other governments and installed ones that were friendly to our interests. Just like the Romans did. We also bribed existing governments into supporting our interests through a variety of means, something the Roman Empire did as well. What the heck do you think the Cold War was all about, anyway? Two large empires trying to check each other.

Merriam-Webster defines imperialist as “the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas.” The US certainly has no bones about that second part. Just because we aren’t a colonial empire doesn’t mean we aren’t an empire.

Violating international law has nothing to do with being an imperialist power, by the way.

Since ‘empire’ has more meanings then simply ‘chunk of land with an emperor’, I see nothing wrong with America being referred to as an ‘Empire’.

One day, we may even jazz up the presidency by renaming it Consul Imperium. (Or Praetor. Who can remember which was more ‘important’?) In times of war, we (well, the government) could appoint a Dictator, Censors every 10 years to take the census, and so on. It would be great, trust me.
But as has been pointed out, if America is to be a empire, then it is a cultural and economic one. For now, at least. The mighty legions of McDonalds, Nike, Microsoft, and White Castle are far more effective at subduing our enemies then Legio IX ever was.

Ironicly, We won the Cuban Missle Crisis but lost Vietnam yet Cuba is still communist and Coca Cola enjoys an over 90% market share in Vietnam.

http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/Courses/Summer1999/E296-3/trip/Vietnam/Cocacola.htm

Wow, I came across this thread completely by chance and I didn’t even realize you had replied to the other thread until I found this one. Should I say I’ve been ‘Great Debated’? :slight_smile:

I didn’t read the whole article so this may be an out of context quote. Assuming it’s not though: you don’t see anything wrong with this? I think this whole quote speaks for itself.

America can’t go around bullying other nations into its intrests. We can’t lay down our rules and expect everybody to obey them while simultaneously laughing at their expectations. We can’t be the world’s judge, jury, and excecutioner and we can’t continue to harm other people and nations to further our own intrests unchecked and unchallanged.

At least, I don’t see how we can do any of that and still consider ourselves somehow better than Saddam’s Iraq.

What gives us the right?

I have mixed feelings. I don’t think the idea is as necessarily horrific on its face as you seem to.

What does “can’t” mean in this statement? I think you may mean “shouldn’t”, 'cause there’s not much in the world right now that tells me that we can’t.

Come on, there are enormous qualitative differences between ourselves and Iraq. What do you think Saddam would be doing to the world if he had our power?

I don’t know if there any “rights” come into it. It looks like the world needs some kind of shepherd or policeman to keep things from going to hell in a handbasket, and it looks like we’re it. All the countries that formerly had the power of world-wide or even regional force projection have abdicated their roles. We’re decades ahead of any newcomers who might want to claim the “right”.

We’re the only game in town. Now, how do we play it? Since September 11, we’ve learned that we can’t take half measures. At least it’s us and not Saddam, Putin, or Jiang.

#1 Can’t do it without being hypocritical [ie claiming to be “better than” Saddam et al]

#2 Can’t do it while maintaining our dignity as a nation and as a culture. We would literally be world class bullies [or are we already?]

#3 Can’t do it without dramatically increasing our chances of further terror attacks. I don’t want to debate what caused 9/11 but just imagine* what you would do if you lived under the thumb of a worldwide superpower that did whatever it wanted to do whenever and wherever it wanted to do it.

[in the case of America as Big Poppa Lawdog, not in the case of the actual 9/11. Like I said, that isn’t the topic at hand, nor am I implying that it was “our fault.”]

SEe, if folks would just follow my ideas…
The US is an Empire, in many respects. The problem is, it’s an empire that is willingly accepted by many of it’s subjects. As I understand it, there is always a long line at the McDonalds in Beijing. Levi’s are still really big items in Russia. Nike, Starbucks, Pepsi, Coke, Hostess, Ford, Chevy, Microsoft, IBM… nobody has ever put a gun to anybodys head and said “Buy American”.

The backlash is that some factions resent what they view as “American Cultural dominance” when in reality what they should be worried about is “Local Cultural apathy”.

The US is in a lose lose situation, IMHO. If we push into other areas, we’re bullies and being insensitive… but if we don’t respond to what we see as failings in other areas, we’re bastards.

I think it should be all or nothing. Either slowly go back to local influence, and abdicate our global responsibilities, or take it whole hog. We’ve conqured the Taliban, Afghanistan would become a protectorate of the US, administered and ruled by same.

Neither one is workable… in theory. So what’s the answer?

American empire? Utter bullshit. We are not forcing our values on anybody. We don’t need to. The American way of life has prospered for 200+ years because its the most free, the most pleasurable, the most flexible, and the most conducive to human nature there is. Foreign societies just resent it when a new generation of theirs realizes and accepts this.

And 9/11 had nothing to do with anything America has ever done to anybody. It was merely a group of selfish, uncivilized, amoral barbarians unhappy that their culture isn’t more popular and blaming it on the more popular (and better) one.

Come now, you can’t truly believe this. The US overthrew Allende and installed Pinochet because they felt Pinochet would uphold American values instead. It’s entire policy in the Middle East has pretty much been imperial, installing and supporting regimes that support American interests, and overthrowing those that don’t. And guess what, American interests have nothing to do with the freedome or wellbeing of the native populations or the values that the native population holds.

I am not sure what you exactly meant but I take issue with the fact that multiculturalism is a uniquely Western perspective. We have the 12th century Spain, which was part of the Islamic empire, and the melting pot that South India was a tad bit earlier with Arabs, Farsees, Jews, Buddhists, Jains, and of course Hindus.

Hegemony isn’t, in theory, all that bad if it promotes freedom, democracy, peace, and prosperity around the world. The United States is presently in a unique position to instill these values throughout the world.

I’ll have to disagree. Pinochet was installed because he would supposedly protect American interests, not instill Amerian values. This venture was not bad, however, because it was “interventionist,” “imperialist,” or something of that sort. It was bad because it was counter to the values mentioned above, values that should be deeply ingrained into everything that the United States does. It was, I’d dare say, a very un-American thing to do.

It is right for the United States to condemn opressive regimes such as Iraq and North Korea. Most would agree that these regimes shouldn’t have the right to exist. Unfortunately, not many are in a position to do something about it. The United States is in a position to do something. Granting freedom to those currently opressed is a very noble goal. The United States shouldn’t halt simply because democracy supposedly is a “Western” concept. Liberal Democracy, faults and all, is still the best system of government out there today. We have the ability to change the world for the better. We shouldn’t waste it.

All of this comes with caveats, of course. We should always be sure that our good intentions don’t end up making folks’ lives even more miserable. The sanctions regime in Iraq may have had the noblest intentions, but the end result has been that Saddam is still as powerful as ever, and now has a convenient scapegoat in the US to point the finger at in front of his people. Regime change is a must, but the US must be careful to initiate this change with the smallest amount of suffering humanly possible. Likewise, current policies in other places in the world, however noble the intentions may be, are turning out to be ineffective. Policy should be rethought in order to ensure that human rights are protected.

It is also genuinely puzzling why the United States says nothing about the opressive regimes in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. If the United States wants to project an image of itself as a freedom-loving nation, it’s about time we condemned opressors more evenhandedly.

I will be the first to say that there are things wrong with the United States. The gap between rich and poor is too big. Welfare is a joke. We pollute way too much. Race relations aren’t as progressive as we would hope, as is evident by the Trent Lott debacle. The rest of the world has much to teach us. Likewise, I think that we have much to teach the world.

I do not think think that the world should be democracratized because democracy is “Western.” The world should be democratized because democracy is simply better. It’s about time that Bush the Younger got around to promoting good throughout the world. Lord knows he certainly isn’t doing it now.

I think the U.S. became a de facto empire after WWII. Japan became and still is more or less a protectorate of the U.S. Ditto for Germany, until the USSR fell and the need for our protection vanished. Taiwan & South Korea still qualify as protectorates in the sense that China & North Korea both know that to attack either of these two countries is to invite a war with the U.S.
We also have a recognized sphere of influence in Latin America. This is the reason why the Cuban Revolution was such a huge coup for the old USSR: they landed a territory within practically shouting distance of the US mainland.
Of course, if we were truly an empire in the old sense we would have gone in with full force and overthrown Castro as soon as it became clear that he was going to ally himself with the USSR. No way the Russians would have responded, not prior to the Missile Crisis, as they would have recognized the reality that Cuba was very much in our sphere of influence. After the Missile Crisis the issue was settled, as the promise not to invade Cuba was part of the deal that ended the crisis.
Which shows the ambiguity. We really do have to decide, as a nation, which way we want to go. If we continue to poke our noses in everywhere around the world, the cost will be huge in terms of money, even if not in lives lost. Considering we’re already suffering from a rapidly growing budget deficit and a monstrous current account deficit, this is a vital consideration. The old empires all collapsed because of the cost of trying to keep them up. We will too, if we really do try to maintain order around the world all by ourselves.

Heh, I’d like a cite for this.

You can’t smoke a joint in a cafe in New York, but you can in Amsterdam. That sounds like more freedom to me.

For the most part massive rallies go on all over Europe without their freedom of speech being quashed.

We arrest Iranians waiting patiently for their INS paperwork to be settled properly.

It is legal for our government to monitor our online communication via a subpoena to our ISPs without telling us that we were being monitored.

So please, if you have a cite for this allegation that we are the freest country on the planet, I’d like to see it, because the evidence to the contrary is very compelling.

Erek

Why is it never mentioned that the Cuban missile crisis was a gambit setup by Kruschev to get American concessions on missile systems that we had within spitting distance of them, located in Turkey? That little tidbit seems to be left out a lot. And I am not positive on this, I’d have to look it up, and if you require a cite, I suppose I will do so, but after the cuban missile crisis, did we not make concessions in Turkey?

Erek