So I hear, although I haven’t seen much evidence of it myself. But what do I know? The only place I’ve ever lived in America was New York, and in five years I don’t think I met a single white Protestant.
I think your misuderstand pretense.
Trying to mimic the tastes of a different class than your own – that’s pretense. And it applies both up and down the ladder.
Actually living within your class isn’t – although it may appear that way to outsiders … .
The Upper Classes may be clanny and snooty, but they’re not pretensious … .
“pretentious” … sigh
Did you spend much time on the Upper East Side? Ever get out to Princeton? Or Westchester County? Connecticut?
They’re there … .
Seriously, if you’re not a native, you’re going to have a hard time picking up on the markers … .
You would have, if you had worked on Wall Street, or in some job that would bring you into contact with the HQ execs of Fortune 500 companies.
LOL … after she went to Smith and before she decided to go to graduate school, my wife supported herself for a year or so as a Manhattan office temp. This was a very bad thing, class-wise, because the typical Manhattan secretary is a mid- to high- prole girl from the Bronx and they could all tell my wife smelled wrong. Just as bad were the upper middle and upper execs who had grown accustomed to having subordinates from a different social class and were very unnerved to having a temp who dressed and talked like one of them. She got dumped on from both ends … .
One of the great things about the movie Working Girl is how well it illuminates these class distinctions. Melanie Griffith’s mid prole vs. Sigourney Weaver’s upper mid. In the end Melanie Griffith winds up leaping into the middle class, but the final shot of her unpacking her stuff in her new cubicle is surprisingly bleak … .
As I seen, pretension means attributing greater importance to yourself or to your beliefs than they deserve, which certainly applies to them.
The two years I lived in New York as an adult I worked in advertising, and everyone I met through business was either Irish, Italian, Jewish, black or Latino - in other words, basic Americans. I didn’t have much to do with CEOs, though, so you may be right, there. As for the Upper East Side, I assume you don’t mean where I lived on 63rd & 3rd; you probably mean east of Lex. Well, everyone I personally knew with a view of the park was Jewish, but since they were mostly friends of my parents I can’t tell you how representitive they were.
Sure, some of my friends (and family for that matter) still live in the barrio…but there IS movement out of it. Many of my friends still there are there for good reasons also…mostly they have to do with culture, some with language and the stuborn refusal to learn english…and some because its what they know, its where their friends and family are. They are still my friends and my family, but I am not going to give them a categoric excuse for them staying in the barrio…in many cases a lot of my 'mano’s in the barrio were frigging born IN America…I wasn’t.
Look, I understand (probably better than you do) what an advantage it is to be affluent, to be able to give your kids a leg up. I also understand the inertia of the barrio and whats comfortable and familiar…and ‘safe’. MY kids, for example, go to better grade schools than I did and have more oppurtunities than I did…we live in the suburbs of a large city, in a very nice section of town with good public schools. And I do a lot of volunteer work at Charter Schools (i.e. poor Hispanic and Native American schools) throughout New Mexico so I see first hand what the poor kids of today have and don’t have as far as oppurtunities goes in education. They have more than you think they do…and more than the majority of them take advantage of unfortunately.
My kids are definitely starting off from a much higher point, with more resources behind them…so, at least in theory, their futures SHOULD be brighter than mine. But what you don’t understand is what its like in another country…like Mexico. You probably understand in your mind…but you don’t REALLY get it in your gut. Hell, I’m practically a fanatic about America because of the things its done for me and my family.
My POINT though, was just because you are poor doesn’t mean you have to stay at the bottom…in America at least. Just because you are poor doesn’t mean you CAN’T get a good education…ESPECIALLY if you are a minority. The fact that not everyone (hell, not many) people take the government and the various private ethnic organizations and grants up on it…well, I’m not going to say its all their fault, but I’m not going to categorically excuse them either…as you seem to be doing. I was there. The programs were there for those who were willing to take advantage of them…and I did. There is NOTHING preventing others from doing exactly what I did. It wasn’t ‘luck’ as you said…it was me being willing to put in the effort to DO it, to find out whats out there and take advantage.
Anyway, I feel like I’m ranting at this point and hijacking this thread. My appologies to everyone…I get worked up abut this stuff and should stay out of the ‘class’ threads in the future. 
-XT
I’m a solidly credentialed haute-WASP. I’m an Eastern Seaboard Episcopalian, christened in The National Cathedral in Washington. My family first lived in New York when it was still New Amsterdam back in 1665. I drive an Oldsmobile. Blah, blah, blah.
I will revel the secret of how we tell who is ‘one of us.’ We listen to the person’s diction and grammar, and we observe the person’s manners. Good diction and grammar, and good manners are the secret handshake. Pass it on.
Rumson?
I’m not so sure of this. By definition, you just “are” in the class you are born into, unless you have successfully transferred to another class. Those in your birth class don’t need to recognize you, your acceptance is automatic.
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You dress, drive, read, and speak in a collection of ways that is acceptable to a statistical group, and together, you and that group become a class.
It’s a statistical thing, mostly, viewed from the outside. From within, it is a matter of identity, and social turf.
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I agree with this statement insofar as it suggests a set of behaviors that define class, but money is definitely not the only factor. Buying the “right” car is facilitated by having enough money, but how you dress, read, and communicate verbally is something ingrained in you by upbringing. Changes in financial situation may give you the chance to learn how to behave in an upper class manner, but that certainly doesn’t come automatically just because you have money. For instance, you might be able to buy expensive clothes, but all the money in the world won’t automatically give you the knowledge of how to choose and wear them correctly in terms of UC tastes.
Bingo!
LOL.
Yup, you’re the real thing … .
Ironically, most of “Wall Street” - Citibank, Bear Stearns, Morgan Stanley, etc has moved to Midtown.
It’s true though. When I worked at the World Financial Center, all the faces were the same - mostly white, Indian or Asian. Clean cut and well dressed. Articulate. I’m in the process of interviewing now - an investment bank and a management consulting firm. For both firms, the recruiter has told me that “they like me and want to bring me back”. Of course they do…I’m relatively young, Jewish (not that anyone asked), I have an MBA from a good school, I worked in a Big-5 firm, I live in Hoboken (not sure if it’s better or worse than the East Village, Upper East Side would be best), I’m from Connecticut, half the people I met at the one firm worked at the same firm as me, some of them went to the same college, two of them I knew personally either in school or at work. In other words, how could they not like me, on paper I am exactly the same!!
It works the same at the top banks, law firms and consulting firms. They all hire from certain schools and in classes. If you don’t go to the schools they recruit at, it’s almost impossible to get hired by them. So what? These are the places where you can make a six figure salary a few years out of school. Work at BCG or Mckinsey for ten years, you can go work at a Fortune 500 as a highly paid director. Work as an investment banker and you could be getting a quarter million dollar bonus at 27. Top law firms also start you at six figures.
Next step down, you could work at Accenture or EDS writing code, accounting for PriceWaterhouseCoopers, or working in the local DAs office for mid five figures.
One of the things that keeps people in their class is that it does feel safe. Sure a poor kid on scholarship to Harvard could emulate his peers - wear their clothes, take on their slang and mannerisms. It probably wouldn’t feel natural though, kind of like wearing someone elses suit. People don’t like having to put on a fake persona all the time in order to fit in.
The exact same argument applies to a Harvard Grad in thrift store clothes, trying to be accepted as a street person. Only other Harvard Grads will be fooled. White guys talking like black folks don’t seem much like black folks, to black folks. A neuveau rich billionaire at a Hampton’s cotillion ain’t foolin’ no one but himself.
Go out to Upperville Virginia, and act like a billionaire. The tourists might buy it, but the folks who make up Upperville high society send their employees to deal with the likes of Michael Eisner, and you are unlikely to do as well as a Disney Production, when it comes to acting like the Horsey set. The Disney folks learned that the expensive way.
Class mobility is limited, even in a democratic society. But it isn’t a matter of birth, it is a matter of what the social sub set wants in its membership. Guys living in cardboard boxes don’t want lawyers living near them, nor do lawyers want guys in boxes living near them. The folks at the Cotillion are not willing to accept that money alone is what matters, so they cling to another set of qualifiers as “what matters” to them. It usually is matters of appearance, including manners, and dress, and behaviors that are reflections of long association with the peer social group, whether that includes knowing how to tie a bow tie, or how to line your coat with newspaper. For some people, it means born around here, to a family that was born around here, for at least as long as anyone still living can remember. That works For Hells Kitchen, or for Butcher Holler, or for Kenebunkport.
Tris
Then there is the question of how much such things really matter. I’m pretty sure that the Neuvo Riche Michael Eisners, Jack Welches and Bill Gates of the world probably don’t care that much that they are not part of some self-proclaimed aristocracy of old-money fuddy duddies. I’m sure they command plenty of respect irregardless.
I also have to question whether the “old money” set really all dress like a Ralph Lauren ad, play polo and eat off fine china every night for dinner after having Jeeves drive them around the Vinyard in their classic Rolls Royce. One of the things that defines a class is the stereotypes they create for other classes. I’ve met people that come from money. Maybe not Kennedy money, and maybe not Old Money, but certainly from the Upper class. What usually identifies it to me is not their pretentiousness but their complete lack thereoff. They dress in the same J Crew, Polo, and Abercrombie & Fitch (before it went all homo-erotic) clothes that the upper middle class wears. The difference is that their clothes always seem either new or just pressed from the dry cleaner. I’m sure they aren’t any more anal than me who wears his Brooks Brothers works shirt a couple times before getting it cleaned, they just likely have someone who takes care of that stuff for them. They speak about their activities - horses, yachting, cotillians, whatever - much in the same way you or I might speak about our weekly touch-football game. It’s not a big deal to them because they have always grown up with it.
Besides, “old money” is bullshit anyhow. Much of the so called “old money” set have long since squandered their wealth or it has been diluted through inheretance or they can no longer afford the property taxes on their mansions. Do you think those estates are rented out for wedings so they can lord their wealth over us Upper-Middles?
There are many paths to wealth. That’s one of the great things about this country. Do the neuvo rich who made their fortunes in banking, technology or entertainment say “gee, I hope those old Newport folks like me”. Fuck no…they’re saying “I’m RICH BIATCH!!!”
I don’t care how much money you have. I don’t care where it came from. I don’t care about your ethnic background, race, place of ancestry, or last name.
I do care about how you behave to others. Do you say ‘Thank you?’ Are you kind to strangers? Do you hold the door open for the person behind you? Do you believe in doing unto others as you would have them do unto you? If you are a parent, are you raising your children as moral individuals?
Those are really the things that matter to me in people.
I hope no one thinks that my discription of the mechanics of class exlusionism was some sort of approval of particularism. I was just noting that it was the class that did the choosing, not the individual.
I have met some street bums with real class, and some horse-riding hound-chasing scumbags I would cross the street to avoid. Somehow, asshole is just not one of the social classes in our system. Kinda wish it were, so they could all move into the same neighborhoods, and leave the rest of us alone.
Tris
“They’ve got us surrounded again, the poor bastards.” ~ Creighton Abrams at Bastogne ~
I’m afraid it’s not that simple. Most people are reasonibly civilized to each other. Issues of “class” start to come into play once people are forced to make selections - jobs, housing, social circles. It’s like the first week of school. Everyone is friendly with everyone else at first because no one knows each other. But pretty soon, people start to gravitate towards the people they feel comfortible with. Next thing you know, you are so close with your people that you can’t relate to other groups and they can’t relate to you.
Take losing your job, for example. To poor person, that might mean going on welfare or losing their home and living on the street. A middle class person might relate, but odds are its more of a source of inconvenience and stress until they inevetibly find a new job. Someone higher up on the social ladder, it might be a welcome break from their 100 hour a week job and a chance to go start a business doing what they really love. To someone born into money, the concept is meaningless because their “job” is likely just something to do because they are bored or want to help people. And these shared attitudes and experiences create barriers. They are fundamental differences in the way a person percieves and processes the world around them which makes class differences more complex than just knowing which fork to use or saying “please” and “thank you”. .
I’d add that in order to be accepted by those new neighbors, the hillbilly (or the person born into inner-city poverty) has to have adopted their speech patterns, manners, and dress.
I think almost anyone can move up in terms of social class – but only if they adopt the speech patterns, manners, dress, tastes, habits, etc. of the class they’re joining. Not everyone is willing to do this. Often, there’s a perception that it’s somehow disloyal not to stick to the uneducated-sounding brand of English of the social class one was born into.