How do you determine what socioeconomic "class" a person is in?

I think it has nothing to do with income, but with whether you sit around worrying about superficial things such as class.

Those who actually give a shit as to whether their neighbors accept them or not tend to be lower class.

Those who move in, treat others as they wish to be treated but otherwise mind their own business and leave their neighbors to any little bubble-gum-chewing-high-school-girl discussions of ‘class’ and social acceptance they wish tend to be higher class.

Low class is being in a restaurant and looking at what other people wear and how they behave and what they eat. High class is being in a restaurant and being oneself and enjoying oneself as if no one else were there.

By your definition, the average homeless vagrant would be very high-class.

Voodoochile: *Low class is being in a restaurant and looking at what other people wear and how they behave and what they eat. High class is being in a restaurant and being oneself and enjoying oneself as if no one else were there.
*

Okay, but I don’t think this has much to do with income level. Plenty of working-class people enjoy themselves at restaurants without caring about their “image” or “status”. On the other hand, plenty of rich people care desperately about being seen at the “right” fashionable restaurants or nightspots, and being acknowledged by the “right” people there.

“Class” in the sense of “a classy person, classy behavior”, i.e. dignity and self-respect, doesn’t necessarily correlate to “class” in the sense of “money and status”.

I don’t believe it’s superficial at all. It is a fundamental way a person perceives and reacts to the world around them.

That’s a very lower class attitude. A person with class understands that they are not the center of the universe and that manners and ritual are there because it is what other people have decided is appropriate for the situation.

Take a nice restaurant for example. People go to eat there for the dining experience and ambiance as much as for the food. A party of 4 dressed like dirtbags while eveyone else is wearing a nice shirt and pressed pants detracts from everyone’s experience. You say that high class is “being oneself and enjoying oneself as if no one else were there”. Well, the fact is that other people probably will be there and class is respecting their right to enjoy their dining experience which includes eating in a place that doesn’t look like an IHOP at 4:00am.

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about class, mostly because I’ve recently become aware of what class means by moving away from the class I was born into. Class in America is often a subtle thing, but it is there, and it is strong.

My story is that I was born the welfare-baby of a nineteen year old waitress. My family was firmly part of the dieing working class- pipelayers and house painters. I grew up in a project around an increadable diversity of immigrants, and everyone I knew was pretty poor. Somehow my mother knew to emphasize education, and unlike most people I grew up with (whos parents emphasized hard work, family obligations, etc.) I ended up in University.

At University, I looked and acted like everybody else. But I knew I was different. I would talk about the great deals I got at the grocery store, much to everyone’s confusion. I’d shop at thrift stores because I had to, because thats what I was used to doing, not for the sake of hip irony. I became friends with the sons and daughters of lawyers and doctors and University professors, not janitors, waitresses and seasonal clerical workers. In a screenwriting class I took, one of my classmates’s mothers sat in, and in the end gave a bit of a lecture. She was a ballet producer and theorist from New York. I felt like an invisible alien. So many of the values I had growing up- resourcefulness, diversity, thriftyness- wern’t relevent. And yet everyone just assumed I was one of them. Class wasn’t a life-consuming thing for me or anything, but I was so much more aware of it than I was when I lived among only people of my own class

Now that I’m out of college, things are even weirder. I’m broke, and frankly working the same crappy jobs my mom worked at this age (albeit without a kid to support) and yet I’ve got an education and don’t belong with the people I work with who are worried about supporting their kids and paying for their cars while I’m dreaming of grad school and travel. And yet I don’t have the family connections so many of my friends had that landed them cushy jobs with their dad’s friend’s companies, nor the ability to not have to work for my supper and travel and do art to my hearts content. It feels like I don’t belong in any class.

It’s subtle. How they handle money is one thing. I recently got an inheritance that is about equal to my outstanding student loans. However, the interest rate on my loans is fixed at an absurdly low level. My family is pushing for me to pay off my loans immediately, because to a working class family, debt is slavery and ones’ first goal should be to make sure that you are not in debt. Most of my friends’ families advise that I should invest the money and keep making payments on my loans, since I will almost surely make more on the investment than I’m paying in interest.

Another example: two of my friends went to the same private high school. I overheard them reminicing about an assembly they had. The presenter was an author talking about how to manage your investments. That would never happen in a million years in my high school. Our assemblies are about how not to get AIDS and that sort of thing.

But there is more than just money. How do they decide what kind of car they drive or what house they live in? What do they do with their kids in the summer? What do their grocery shopping patterns look like? What kind of connections do their families have?

It’s not easy. I think most of the time, you are in your own class so you don’t worry about it too much. I don’t think you can even really become that aware of class until you are outside of your own class. I know nobody I went to school with really noticed how different I was class-wise and they all called me silly when I pointed it out.

It happens. But things like education, money handling and family connections tend to keep you in your own class.

Education is the big one. There IS a difference between what choices a graduate of a crappy high school that didn’t prepare them to go to college (telling them SAT dates, providing honors classes, explaning financial aid forms, workshopping personal statments and application essays in class) and one where they just assume you are headed to a four year college. There is a difference between the parent that sends their kid to science camp and the parent that sends their kid to work. There is a difference between the kid who gets books as birthday presents and the kid who has never seen their parents read. This difference is almost insurmountable. If you never learned the value of education, you are unlikely to just magically dicern it.

And of course, family connections are a big deal. My family could hook me up with a low-level state clerical worker job (and has often tried) but that really isn’t what I want for myself. Meanwhile, my friends’ parents are hooking them up with jobs at law offices and accounting firms and the like. I think there is also a tendancy for families to try to keep their children in their own class.

I think it’s important to at least aknowledge it and think about it a bit. We are so busy telling ourselves that it doesn’t exist that we miss out on a lot of ways to improve American society (for example, think about what class most often ends up in the military and what effect that has on politics and if that is all very fair at all). We need to look at how educational oppertunties and family connections make the playing field uneven and try to fix that if we want to live up to the American dream and claim “equality of oppertunity”.

I suggest you check out Paul Fussell’s book Class (discussed above) and read the last chapter, about “Class X.”

I think that is an excellent example of why it can be so hard to switch between classes. It usually involves adopting a very different view than the people you grew up with. Often it can lead to feelings of isolation as you don’t feel that you completely belong to either class. Fortunately, classes are not that defined so there is a lot of mixing and blending.

Right, because to them the higher paying jobs appropriate for your education are still jobs that “other people” get, ot folks from the neighborhood. It’s like my high school counsellor who said that if I was interested in engineering, I should apply to a 2 year technical school (because I’d say75% of people from my high school don’t really go to anything higher than one of the local state schools). Yeah…I think I’ll go with that if all of the 4 year accredited engineering schools reject my application.

Humphrf!! NEW money always gets AIDS

I don’t know how much of it is a tendency to keep children in their own class, and how much is just giving advice from their own experience. My parents were working class , and so was the neighborhood. I can’t think of a single childhood friend who so much as walked into a college, and most of them didn’t even finish high school. My mother very much wanted us to go to college, and wanted us to have more than she did. She was thrilled when my sister and I bought new cars, and when my other sister and I bought houses. Not just becasue we had them- but because she didn’t own a new car until she was forty, and never owned a house until after she was fifty. My sisters and I did it in our 20’s. But still, she was absolutely overjoyed when the three of us ended up in government work- not low level or clerical, and family didn’t help us get them, but still government work. Which to many people means insurance, pension, no layoffs- in short, security. Unlike private industry, which means risk- maybe I would have earned more, but I also could have lost the job. And that is another big differences between classes- comfort wth risk. I have investments that are not as safe as a savings account ,savings bond or bank CD. I could actually lose money. I don’t feel that the safest choice is always the best, even if it’s the lowest earner. My mother absolutely would pick the safe one every time.

Some people don’t. Sometimes people may question why you would want a better lifestyle than they had - “what…we aren’t good enough for you?”

I’ll give you an example. My girlfriends went to a middle class college but an upper class prep school for high school. I went to an more elite college nearby. We met because she used to spend a lot of time at my school because she was more comfortible with the people who went there. This sometimes caused friction with her friends because they thought she was snubbing them for the rich kids across the river. By the same token, every time I went to her school, they all thought I was arrogant and stuck up when in fact they had no way of knowing how arrogant I was. I was always polite and civil (unlike the doushebags who attended school there) but I just couldn’t relate to to their modest ambitions - drink beers, eek out an education, go work in their dads sporting goods store or get hitched or whatever they would do. People from my school partied even harder but also were preparing for careers in finance, engineering, management, etc.