Where I went to HS there really was no such thing as a merit-based scholarship you won without consciously applying for it. There were academic prizes that has a bit of cash attached, but the value was never really over 20 bucks, more symbolic than anything else.
The real (i.e. those that actually had enough value to help with education-costs)scholarships you had to apply for, write essays, the whole shebang. They were really meant for those that would have trouble making ends meet, but anyone could apply and since grades were a large portion of the decision, a lot of more-than-well-off kids I knew got scolarships like that, and more often than not spent it clubbing over a weekend. I never applied for a single one, since my parents had the means and make it perfectly clear that they were going to fund the entire thing.
I always found it distatesful to the extreme to attemp to get a scholarship that was aimed at those that needed it, since, hey, I didn’t . That kind of behaviour is akin to taking food out of the mouths of the needy: They have an acute need for it, I don’t, so why should I get it?
Bah. The behaviour of those idiots **still **pisses me off.
I’ve heard the SAME story from plenty of parents I work with now - make a middle class sort of $100k a year income - you make too much money for a lot of needs based aid. They’ll give you a loan, but needs based scholarships or grants - nope.
Tuition has exceeded the pace of inflation, but most things I hear is that if anything - there is LESS aid and scholarship money out there now than when I was 17.
(I am in school right now, and I think its really cheap - state school and I still would pay $6k a year full time - I go part time).
I have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Here are the common types of scholarships:
Need based scholarships - these apply to most schools but have the greatest effect at the best schools. If a student can get into Harvard, any other Ivy League school, or most of other the really great schools, then money is no issue. It doesn’t matter if your family lives in a van by the river. They will make it happen and this happened to me with very little effort on my part.
Athletic scholarships - these obviously have to be earned whether you are a football player or a female basketball player but they are merit based and it doesn’t matter who your family is as long as you are good at the sport through working hard and being talented.
Merit based academic scholarships - these don’t care about your family financial situation and they are an honor to the student. I have no idea why it would be a problem for any student, regardless of means, to accept one of those because it is an individual honor.
ROTC and other service based scholarships - College education is paid for but there are years of service required after college to and I fail to see how any family financial circumstances would apply to these.
Targeted scholarships - these tend to be smaller awards meant to be an honor for specific circumstances like being a black Eagle Scout. They don’t mean that much financially but they are an honor to the individual.
Worrying about the “needy” in this context is a fools game. Good students, especially those in lower income families, will have no problem getting financial aid. The financial burden tends to affect the middle and upper-middle classes more. My wife and I went to the same great university. My mother and stepfather went bankrupt my senior year of high school. I had money thrown at me with no effort on my part and paid $0 the entire time. He family is wealthy and it was a struggle even for them to pay out t $60,000 a year in cash for my wife and her sister to go to school.
Clarification: In Europe (or the corner I grew up in, no need to generalize), some universities are free, with others you pay a small-to-middling amount of money. Mostly the cost was not a problem, but it could be. The system of "scolarships"such as it is (the little I know of it) in the US didn’t/doesn’t really exist. Schools would not offer much in the way of reduced fees, but expect you to get the cash somewhere else.
The substantial scolarships (that would pay for the more “expensive” universities) available were mostly merit/area-based, with needs probably taken into consideration, but grades as the fundamental criteria. Also, you had to apply for them, so no chance of “accidentally” gettting one, you had to want it. So a rich kid who had better grades than a poor kid also applying would have a better chance of getting that money. The incentives for the rich kids was that the scolarships often had names attached to them (i.e. the “Klein-Rosencranz scolarship for excellence in Ancient History”) that look good on CV’s. So students who were actually in need of the money would get bypassed on half the value of an education in favour of kids whose parents were paying anyway, and blew the money on a night on the town.
While there will be no sad violin music playing in the background, kids do not choose to be born wealthy. We can’t fault a wealthy kid for sitting back and letting mommy and daddy pay for everything for the rest of his life, and at the same time fault him for working hard and earning something as well.
If a wealthy kid works hard and earns something, then he deserves it.
It’s 24, actually. Probably one of my happiest birthdays, just because my financial aid was no longer based off my father’s income but mine. By the time I was 24, I had been working full-time for nine years and living on my own and supporting myself for six. Dad’s income wasn’t great (35-40k) but since I was his only “dependent” :rolleyes: it was enough that there were years when I wasn’t eligible for anything but the smallest Pell Grants. At my first school competition for academic scholarships was fierce. I managed to pull in my share, but only after my second year when I had learned the ropes enough to be able to figure out what was out there and what I could apply for.
I agree that it would be nice if rich parents of kids who earn academic scholarships would donate a matching amount to the school. But there’s no real reason why a kid should turn down an academic scholarship just because his/her parents have money. It could be the kid’s choice as much as the parents - he might want to prove that he could make it on his own, that he’d be able to take care of his education even if he wasn’t Michael Jordan’s son, etc. When he graduates and enters the work force, he’s not going to turn down a salary just because dad is rich enough to support him without it. If he worked hard enough to earn it, he deserves it.
I got one of those “write-an-essay-win-a-scholarship” awards. Did I need the money? No. I had already received a full scholarship through the state plus a National Merit plus a smaller scholarship through the university. And if I hadn’t had any scholarship money, my parents had the means (albeit limited) to pay for schooling. Using your logic, I should not have submitted an essay.
But that would be bullshit.
The scholarship was not offered as a form of charity. If it had been, the insurance company writing the check would have just donated it to the United Way or something. Or they would have stipulated that there be some hardship story attached to the essay. But they didn’t. They wanted to reward young talent. And since none of my other scholarships were guaranteed to last for four years, it seemed wise to me to secure as much money as I could. Turns out that was a wise decision.
I have more sympathy for a poor kid denied a scholarship because of a Jeffery Jordan kind of situation–where the award is a gift rather something deliberately applied for–than for a poor kid who didn’t get a scholarship because he was outcompeted by a more fortunate kid in an essay-contest. Not saying I don’t have any sympathy, but life is full such unfairness.
Financial aid means loans, not free money. You have to repay it and that means decades of indentured servitude. My two best friends in college (Ivy League, to give you an idea of what it cost) were both valedictorians from their high schools, so very bright and capable. They were both from single parent families where the mother made about $25,000 a year and the fathers contributed nothing towards college. They both worked while going to school, yet still went into massive personal debt, not just for tuition, but in credit cards for personal expenses. They graduated in 1994 and are nowhere near paid off; the repayments are onerous, as you would imagine they’d be. So this idea that worrying about the needy is a “fools game” is incorrect, IMO. Having a scholarship (meaning, money that does not need to be repaid, as opposed to financial aid, which does) would have been a huge boon to my friends and would have made a big difference in their lives, even today.
I say if a “rich” kid earns a scholarship, give it to them! Everyone deserves recognition for their work, no matter their background.
That said, all the most prestigious and highest dollar-amount scholarships offered at my university usually require both financial need and a demonstrated commitment to academic badassery. A lot of the time you have to contribute something back, but the expectations are pretty trivial compared to how much cash you get. Economically disadvantaged students are often given university grants as well. At one university, I was offered a huge scholarship much in the same vein as the grants down here - I didn’t even apply for them, they just looked at my FAFSA and my JC transcript and offered it up. I can only speak for the UC system though, and it is by all accounts a great system.
My parents are both doctors. I got a scholarship that paid for my tuition, books, and would have paid room and board, but I lived at home. In addition, I had a national merit stipend. This was to a local university. To me, it’s similar to athletic scholarships. If money’s paid out to attract star atheletes to make the school look good, it would be ridiculous not to have academic scholarships.
-Lil
IMO if the scholarship was set up to be based on a certain merit, then if the kid meets that merit he should get it. The merit can be he must be below a certain income, it can be he must have certain grades, or certain athletic skills or a mix. But as long as the kid meets the criteria, then I see nothing wrong with him getting the money.
Do you have any idea whatsoever about what you are talking about? Do you care to learn?
Loans are a part of it which you seem to grasp and that is encouraging. The other part is grants and they can be both private or government sponsored. Those are gifts and don’t need to be paid off ever. The third part is tuition waivers which almost every school has. I had all of those and it wasn’t any effort to get, Good schools try to set their students up with debts that they can handle in the future and poor students often get a free ride.
The situation you describe often happens. The expectation is that the education itself will allow the student to pay for it in the future. This is obvious with law school and medical financial aid but it applies to other types of education as well. In this case, the financial situation of your parents has no relevance because you are going to be a professional with the means to pay for it over time even if it sucks in the beginning.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that I have some idea whatsoever what I am talking about. Do you need to be so unpleasant? Do you care to stop?
My dear, you said “financial aid.” Please reread your own post before biting someone’s head off unnecessarily. You didn’t say “grants” or “tuition wavers.” Yes, everyone can get financial aid. Those grant and tuition wavers? Not so easy to get, apparently, since my friends didn’t get them and have incurred long-term financial hardship as a result. So your idea that “worrying about the needy is a fool’s game” is not accurate and, I would say, is dismissive without basis. Maybe if a rich student turned down a grant or tuition waver, a person who had greater financial need would get it. Not saying anyone should turn down free tuition, but it’s patently NOT true that needy people will automatically get help with tuition, nor is it true that it is foolish to worry about less well-off kids being able to pay for college. Just because it happened for YOU does not make it a universal truth for everyone.
So apparently I DO know what I’m talking about, and I don’t need to learn from you. Huh.
The education itself will allow the student to pay for it in the future? That’s the basis for your dismissive take on the foolish idea of worrying about needy kids’ tuition? Oh, it still sucks for my friends 13 years after graduating. See, they were silly and studied what interested them, which was not law or medicine or business. Thus, they are still in massive debt and they are making the same amount of money that my brother, the guy who never went to college but is a postal worker, makes. So do I, for that matter, with two master’s degrees, for which I am still paying.
I will reiterate that I would never say that a kid who gets a merit scholarship should turn it down just because his parents are loaded. I am refuting the idea that kids from low income families don’t have to worry about tuition, that “financial aid” will take care of it. Financial aid is long-term debt, and it can be quite onerous for a very long time. Not to mention that people in college full-time incur other expenses besides tuition that also build up and can be hard to get out from under. Overall, I think it’s a crime that so much debt has to be incurred in America in order for most people to attend college.
Finacial Aid at the Ivys has gotten much, much better in the last ten years; If your household income is under $50,000, they promise you a complete free ride without loans: it’s a really weird game–when you are competing to get in, they play hard to get, but once they decide they want you, they will fight to get you–the high school where I teach had students from very low-income families get accepted by Ivy’s the last two years (Yale in one case and literally every one except Yale where she didn’t apply because she didn’t like the first girl the next year) and in both cases the schools moved heaven and earth–flew the girls up for campus visits, introduced them to teachers and potential mentors, figured out individual tuition plans (including in one case covering everything without federal funds because the girl was a legal resident but not a citizen, and so could not get Pell grants)–“yield”–the % of applicant who you accept who in turn attend your school–is a big deal for these places, and once they want you, they will fight for you.
State school aid is not nearly so good. It’s becoming SOP to encourage Low-SES kids to apply to the fancy private schools, something that seems counter-intuitive to the ones that don’t understand the system (which is all of them, give or take).
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to lash out at you. It is just that we were looking at it two different ways. In the context of this thread, I don’t like it when anyone suggests that well off = advantage in college financing. There are lots of forms of aid and the poor kids often have an advantage at the better schools as Mando Jo relates.
This is good information for me to have, actually. My parents were working under the same assumptions as Dangerosa’s parents: since they had little money for college, I was encouraged to look at State schools and not private ones. In fact, I was encouraged and did go to the local community college, because I could afford that with Pell grants and working at Blockbuster. I’ve been assuming my son should do the same. Now I think maybe he should apply to more expensive schools instead, as it sounds like they might, perversely, be more affordable for lower income parents like us. Weird.
You do have to watch what Ruby is talking about - some colleges have ample funding for those low income kids to get grants - but they tend to be very high end colleges - and very difficult to get into. Send your kid to a small midlevel private college, and the financial aid package will probably include loans - at that point in time you need to determine if leaving with the loan is worth the college.
I went to the University of Iowa (reciprocity), University of Minnesota. I applied to a few local private colleges. I would have gotten SOME grants from a private school - but I would have also left with loans. Going grantless to a public school, my father could pay for all four years - the last year however, I ended up with a full ride school government scholarship.
My husband graduated from one of those small liberal arts colleges and got about half loans and half grants - his mom was a single mom without a lot of money. That college endowment has gotten smaller since the 1980s.
But DO apply for the schools he is interested in - you won’t know what the package is until afterwards. Most schools have aid information on their website and will give you an idea of what percentage of kids are their with different forms of aid.
That is definitely true in lots of cases. My university was one of the most expensive in the country at the time. I was the poor kid on paper and got grants, a few loans, tuition waivers, and work study programs. The total bill would have been $130,000 when I graduated in 1995. I came out with $6000 in loans for living expenses and incidentals which was trivial to pay off over the 10 year term. My wife’s family paid, well, $130,000. I know of lots of cases like that and the poorer kids should definitely apply to the great schools because they want them. Poor doesn’t actually mean poor in the general sense. A household income of 50K or 60K means poor to the best universities and they will find a way to make it happen.
This is true. In my experience (and I help a lot of kids through this process), mid-level private schools are quick to offer low-income kids incentives that more or less bring the cost in line with in-state 4-year school tuition. You have to have something else to offer them before they will make a better deal than that–like test scores/grades that could have gotten you into one of the better schools, interesting essay/letter of rec combination that makes you sound appealing, or some sort of diversity–note that that diversity can be racial, ethnic, socio-economic or geographical–mid-level private schools across the country are more likely to offer someone from a different region of the country an attractive aid package than they are to offer one to someone down the street. They’ve got plenty of local kids, but they like kids from all over. I have a former student who is paying under $5000 out of pocket/loans per year in total to attend a good small libral arts school in the midwest. Her grades, test scores, and extra-curriculars were good but not top tier, but she was from Texas and a war refugee, both things they didn’t have a lot of. She also applied at quite a few schools, which is key when what you are selling is your charm.
ETA: Power test scores can also help. Some of these mid-level schools have automatic scholarships that kick in if you are National Merit Commended or higher.