How do you guarantee freedom?

Great Debates
41

Felice,

I can safely say that there is no person in political power that has received my vote.

Unfortunately, we currently live in a two party system, except for local issues and one governor that I know of there are no “other” people that are not part of the Democratic (puke) or the Republican ('nother puke) parties.

I refuse to vote for those that are bad but not as bad as the other guy. I refuse to vote for those that have no sense of what our political system was intended for.

SO, you can count me out as being one of those that voted in these block heads in the federal government. The government as it stands now is not a “for the people” government but a popularity contest to get corporate interests their money and the poor no dream or want to get out of the system.

Like it or not, you can’t buy a car on Sunday in Colorado. In Colorado you can’t buy anything more than 3.2 beer or wine coolers in a grocery store, because of some moralists I never voted in. Like it or not, the government is enacting new laws every day to curb some behavior or another regardless if this suits the majority or not, in most instances it does nothing but complicate things.

So, please don’t tell me that this is a government for the people and of the people. If this is a truely free society, how come we work from January through May for the federal government (taxes)? I didn’t vote anyone in to raise my taxes. How come I must pay for some museum that’s paid for with federal taxes in Virginia when I don’t even go to that place? I didn’t vote for THAT senator that lobbied to get this museum built? I have many more instances where the government is not for the people by the people but I am done with this posting. Probably clapping your hands now eh?

42

The idea of Tracer and Sake as a team of superheroes guaranteeing our freedom sounds appealing. GuanoLad, could you work them in as guest stars, or contribute a graphic of them to the board?

http://flowerkitty.tripod.com/smile/fish.gif

43

Sheesh! Where to begin? First of all, only a small minority support any kind of gun confiscation, and the popular interpretation of the 2nd amendment will continue to prevail, so GET REAL!

Now then, although I support the right to own guns for self-defense, I also support universal registration. If the police recover a gun at a crime scene, they should be able to trace it to its owner. A criminal with a registered gun will think twice about leaving the house it. The supply of black-market unregisterd guns will quickly dry up, but only if it’s nationwide with no exeptions.

The idea that the U.S. government is scheduled to become tyrannical is insanely paranoid (it’s also neo-rubbish and crypto-rubbish). Who would support that? With such a deeply entrenched democratic tradition, how could the American people overthrow our system of checks and balances? Where do people get the idea that the current round of legislation is the last chance to implement safeguards before we all go to sleep and put the gevernment on automaitc pilot?

44

I have a Ruger Mark II semiautomatic .22 calibre pistol I use(d) for “plinking”. (Hard to get to a range anymore, what with so many of them being closed down.)

My ex-roommate “accidentally” put it in the trunk of his car (unloaded). One of his disreputable drug-addict gangster friends was hanging around the car. The police decided to search the car even though the person didn’t own it and wasn’t in it. They found and confiscated the gun.

I bought the pistol from a dealer, paid the DOJ fee, and have my name registered somewhere with the State. It would have been a simple matter to establish ownership and let me know that it had been confiscated. Did they notify me? Of course not! The ex-roommate finally told me. Since he’s sucha weasel, I assume he tried everything he could to get it back to me quietly. That implies that the police knew it didn’t belong to him and that they knew I didn’t know it was gone.

I have NO faith that if registration of all guns were required, that the police would actually try to find the owner.

Since I don’t have firearms for self-defence, I now keep them under lock-and-key.

45

Personally, I don’t think you can guarantee freedom, for every action you want to perform, there might be someone out there that finds the idea of you performing it offensive and immoral. Both of you think you’re right, right? Who is? I understand the viewpoint of people who want guns made illegal. At least, I think I understand a few of them, I may not and not all. However, I happen to think that they’re wrong, that there are more things the gun should be used for if necessary than are used for when they shouldn’t be.

As for guaranteeing freedom, the FF did a pretty good job. I don’t see the government as being on the fast track to hellacious tyranny. I see it more as a big, gooey mass, being pulled in all directions by lots of people. If one group ever got fully in power, they’d reshape that mass to suit their own views and feel they were right in doing so (and the public would agree with them).

I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.

46

That’s a pretty feeble response, Johnny. It’s unfortunate that the cops didn’t give a damn about returning the gun to its rightful owner, but if your gangster friend-of-friend had shot someone with it, dumped it, and disappeared, the cops could have identified him by talking to you.

Registration wouldn’t be a panecea, but it would save many lives by giving police an effective tool and making it more difficult for criminals to anonymously obtain and use guns.

Saying you don’t think it’ll do any good is insufficient, because you could be wrong and a lot of lives hang in the balance. The main objection by the gun lobby is that the government might someday use the information for nefarious purposes, but this is paranoid nonsense.

47

Polycarp wrote:

What a coincidence! I took the user name “Tracer” from a super-hero character I created for the Champions[TM] role-playing game system back in 1982!

Be warned, though, all of Tracer’s super-powers are derived from a rectangular box-like alien artifact he has strapped to his chest. Take away this alien “box”, and Tracer is powerless – and worse, any villain could strap on the box and use Tracer’s own powers against the world!

Make sure you draw “Tracer” as having little yellow energy contrails swirling around his body, emanating from the alien box. The yellow energy thingies produce a force shield around him, sorta like a yellow glowing suit of armor. They also keep the air in, so he can fly in space. (Of course Tracer can fly! He’s a super-hero!)

The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

48

Sake Samurai wrote:

Ah, you underestimate the power of Ruby Quartz. It is the only substance – other than the insides of Cyclops’s eyelids – that can stop Cyclops’s eye beams. Cyclops’s visor is made of ruby quartz, and so are the red sunglasses he wears when in his secret identity as Scott Summers. Ruby quartz doesn’t merely reflect any incident rays, it nullifies them completely!

Silly, everybody knows that Wolverine’s claws stick out of the backs of his hands, not his fingernails. (And I might add that, until Magneto got pissed at him and did something really nasty, Wolverine’s claws were made out of adamantium, the hardest, toughest metal known to exist. Nowadays, though, they’re just made out of bone. Bleah.)

49

techchick68 said:

Do you drive on public roads? Do you attend a public school? Do you take your kids to public parks? Do you have water and sewer lines run to your house? Do you like to know that your groceries are safe and healthy? Do you want to get compensated when you are injured on the job? Do you expect the fire department to put out your housefire? Do you expect the city snowplows to come dig your street out? Do you want the national guard to come protect your city from riots? Do your parents receive medicare and medicaid? Do you like to see the fireworks on the Fourth of July?
THAT is what you pay taxes for.

You didn’t vote for the person who happens to be in office? Sucks to be you. The majority of those who care did. If you don’t like any of the candidates platforms, don’t just throw up your hands and say ‘they’re all scum.’ Get out there and do something about it. Write letters, tell your representatives what you think. Find others who support you. Run for office on your own platform.
If you’re not going to do anything about what you perceive as the problem, then you do not have the right to bitch about it.

50

Do you drive on public roads? Yes I do, a fee which I am happy to pay

Do you attend a public school? I did, and they failed me horribly. A public school system does not work. Private school is the key to keeping costs down and having a good education. My brothers have their kids in private schools for this very reason.

Do you take your kids to public parks? If you know anything about building, virtually any new developments are required to “donate” land for parks and schools. My brother is a commercial builder and developer and I work for him, I know for a fact this happens.

Do you have water and sewer lines run to your house? Umm, sure do, again the developer pays for these to be run and those costs are transferred to home owners. Also, the roads are paid for by the developer. In addition, I pay my sewer, water and electrical bills which are city run. I assure you the price of those are not the actual cost but more, which is understandable.

Do you like to know that your groceries are safe and healthy? Sure, but I don’t need to have my taxes going to a government study that states ketsup is a health food.

Do you want to get compensated when you are injured on the job? I am self employed and don’t have worker’s comp insurance. My private health insurance will compensate me if anything happens. Also, worker’s comp is paid via the employer not our taxes.

Do you expect the fire department to put out your housefire? Do you expect the city snowplows to come dig your street out? Sure a fee I gladly pay for.

Do you want the national guard to come protect your city from riots? Sure, another fee I gladly pay for, besides that is guaranteed in the constitution.

Do your parents receive medicare and medicaid? Nope, my father was a business owner and made enough money to be retired and needs no assistance from the govt.

Do you like to see the fireworks on the Fourth of July? Sure, who doesn’t. All but one of the displays in town are privately funded. The one the city holds is paid for also in part with private funding.

None of your examples point out anything that I am against when it comes to paying my taxes. Programs like The National Endowment for the Arts should be nixed. Paying for a museum in Virgina should never be paid for with my federal taxes. Many studies that are funded by the federal govt, I can’t name any off hand, but they do exist. There are so many programs and projects that are funded by our tax dollars that should be cut and private organizations, if they feel the program or study is important enough should take over.

You didn’t vote for the person who happens to be in office? Sucks to be you. The majority of those who care did. You don’t think I care? My non-vote in the last presidental election was my vote. I felt neither candidate was worthy of my vote. Again, should I vote for the not so bad person? I am now a registered Libertarian, so don’t say I am not involved. The party takes the stance I take regarding our current govt and where it should be. I don’t think the things the party believes in can happen over night, but it can happen.

If you’re not going to do anything about what you perceive as the problem, then you do not have the right to bitch about it. As a registered voter and as a tax payer I have every damn right to bitch about anything I perceive to be as bad govt. We also have what is called “The First Amendment.” Even if I weren’t registered and I didn’t pay taxes, I still have that right to bitch all I want. You and the government can’t supress my ability to bitch.

51

BTW, I told you to quit bitching too, guess I need to mellow out.

52

Lemme get this straight. You’re using the public school system as an example of crazed governmental tyranny?

53

sqweels,

You said “You’re using the public school system as an example of crazed governmental tyranny?” I didn’t.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

That’s just rude.

I think the public education system is one screwed up publicly funded program that fails kids in so many ways.

If it were solely privatized, the schools would have to stay on their toes to stay in business, if you will. Right now, for the poor I would gladly help fund (privately not taxation) low-income students get into a school that I felt was worthy of my money. They do have discounts for low-income people at the school that my brothers’ kid’s go to, they pay about a third of the cost and the kids that come out of this school (although not a school I would donate to) are at a 90% + graduation rate compared to something in the 70% range for our largest school district. 100% would be ideal, but let’s face it, not all kids are going to meet the challenge.

54

So much for the original debate topic. But lets start with what seems to be the current topic, public schools.

No matter what form of education you provide for your children, if they don’t want to learn, they won’t. I personally know three very successful business people who all attended public schools. One is a private insurance adjuster. Him and his brother both attended public school and they own their own business.

The next is my boss. He attended public shools and is now running a nation floor finishing business.

The third is a guy I went to school with and he is now working his way up the ladder at a local bank and will probably be in charge before he is fifty. His family basically runs all the banks in town and public education has worked for everyone of them.

Then again, I’ve known a person or two who has had a private education. On in particular that I can think of is a gal who’s mother made her go to catholic school. The gal now works a cash register at Wal-Mart for minimum wage.

Public versus private education is not a valid debate. It’s how do you teach your kids to apply knowledge. If you look at American history, not every person prior to the current generation has been a genius.

The lack of the bible and pledge of allegeince in schools has not caused the ‘immoratlity’ of today’s youth. Some very blood thirsty people were from the ‘christian’ era of this nation. A case to point out is how Molley ? (I’m sorry, I forgot her name.) supposedly hacked up her parents with a hatchet.

It’s easy to blame public education for the failings of society because everyone that does so is just to fucking lazy to be responsible for their own kids. My parents never made an excuse for me. They always told teachers and administrators that I was responsible for my actions and I should be punished or awarded accordingly.

I’m no saint but I’m far more ‘christian’ than a lot of christians I know!!!

55

Sorry Daniel,

I was replying to sqweels posting…felt I needed to set straight his reaction to my previous posting.

56

Coupla points on the Felice/Techchick analysis of government services:

In a lot of the country, developers are not required to put in parks; in a few places, imposing such a requirement is contrary to the state enabling statutes for zoning.

Water and sewer: Okay, developers pay for new lines. But taxes or user fees, or grants from federal or state government that ultimately come from taxes, pay for new water and sewer plants to service the additional lines, and they’re the more expensive piece of the pie. I worked for over seven years with grants programs for new/upgraded water and sewer plants; take my word on this one.

In addition, there are a lot of ares of the country that are not experiencing development. A new park in a little village in rural New York or Nebraska is not going to be funded by the nonexistent developer; the local taxpayer will foot the bill, unless there happens to be a large charitable company, foundation, or individual on hand to give it. In addition, the water and sewer systems (and other infrastructure) of non-growing communities get old and begin losing integrity, and need to be rebuilt; after a certain point, this is best done in large chunks instead of repairing breaks. E.g., a certain two-village water system in St. Lawrence County NY that I am familiar with had 29 waterline breaks during 1987. That pipe doesn’t need fixing; it needs replacing.

57

Err…1997. Those 29 breaks were over less than seven miles of total main lengths. 29 breaks spread over the NYC or LA system in a year would not be unreasonable. In this system it was symptomatic of mains too old to do the job (60+ years in service).

58

Straight Dope Superheroes! With Tracer as my sidekick and Polycarp in tow, we will fight oppression, injustice, ignorance and poor grammar with our razor wits and thick skulls!!

Guano - I’m to be pictured as a perpetually drunk and scratching Toshiro Mifune with a large badass sword over my shoulder and two gourd-bottles full of sake on my belt.

Maybe Cecil can be that venerable old guy with the big head in the psychedelic hovering wheelchair!!

Hell is Other People.

59

I think the issue about our tax dollars working for us revolves around the following statistic: Over 60% of our tax dollars goes into Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, Welfare and other socialistic programs.

These programs do not help me. I did not vote for them and I am adamantly (wink, wink) against them. It’s bad enough I’ve got to work all Monday for the Federal government, but it’s REALLY depressing that from 8-2:30 I won’t get anything for that money.

I get even by spending wasting that time online :slight_smile:

Hell is Other People.