How do you know when you are being ripped off?

Further to my pit thread about some computer repairs I had done, I was struck by the confidence of some folk who declared that they would just ‘know’ when they were being fleeced by technicians.

Today I reckon I got done again by a mobile car-tech who fixed my window. Cost me just under $500, but how would I know?

How do you determine whether the techie fixing your ‘thing’ is ripping you off, or whether their charges are par for the course?

(Include any stuff repairable…cars, air cons, washing machines, computers, etc etc)

There are several possibilities:

  1. Your window was just an expensive repair, and the parts and labour really were about $500.
  2. The tech charged you $500 to replace a $2 part.
  3. The tech charged you $500 to replace a $2 part… using a difficult method and special tools. Someone else would have charged you $600 to do it the easy way, which involves replacing half the door.
  4. The manufacturer charges $450 for a part that’s really about $12 worth of plastic and aluminium.
  5. The tech charged $500 for $300 of parts and labour because it was a house call, and because it’s a risky repair that sometimes results in a broken part.

Which ones are ripping you off?

No** tellyworth**…this is IMHO, and I’m asking how YOU determine whether the charges you incur are actually legitimate charges, or whether they’re inflated because you’re not a 1) mechanic 2) an IT specialist 3) a washing machine repairman etc etc.

I’m not interested in re-visiting my own shit from the last few days…I AM interested in asking others how they deal with such situations themselves.

I’ll ask around family, friends, the office, the choir, the parish, neighbours etc to see whether anyone has had to have similar work done and how much it has cost.

Give me $100 and I’ll tell you.

Oh you’re all friggen comedians (bar Cuncator). I should pay you just for the Funny Value alone! :smiley:

Yeah, whatever…so it’s just me who’s a gullible know-nothing. I’ll admit that I’ve been taken in my time…what I WANT to know is how you superior beings avoid being ripped off!

Smart-arses the lotta ya. :wink:

:smiley:

Everyone here really wants to help the OP (kambuckta) but we have a few questions.

Question 1). In what year did you loose your virginity? (Details please…)

There’s a guy at work (think of Dilbert’s Topper) who’s always in a hurry to tell me I’ve been ripped off. I don’t even have to tell him the specifics!

Example:
Me: Oh, we got an alarm system installed over the weekend.
Him: Did they charge you anything for installation?
Me: Yeah, X $.
Him: Oh, you’ve been ripped off. That’s always free.

You are not alone in this. In a lot of cases, it is very hard to know whether a price is fair or not. In addition to what Cunctator suggested, I try to look on the internet when possible to get a sense of a reasonable price range.

In the case of the car tech, I would have asked him to break down that $500. How much is parts, how much is labor, how much is the premium for coming to you?

Judging from the attitude of my younger brother, if he didn’t personally negotiate the price, you got ripped off.

Serioulsy, though, try to get an idea what the cost of parts and hourly cost of labor are. For example, if the parts cost $75, and labor averages $90/hour, and the guy took less than an hour to complete the job, it’s pretty good bet that he overcharged for the service.

You can’t know if you’re being ripped off or not – which uncertainty is the whole bedrock of the free-enterprise economic model. If the fairness of a deal could unerringly and accurately be ascertained in advance by both parties, there would be no margin for profit by those possessed of guile. Hence no incentive to participate in the market, nor to risk capital to do so.

Get a quote and ask what it’s based upon. Ask what the materials will cost, and how much labour is involved.

What do you think the problem is?
How much will the parts cost?
How much time should that take?

If its large and NOT and emergency, I get 3 quotes. Don’t pay for quotes.

First there’s the question of identifying a rip off. High priced does not necessarily mean overpriced.

My field is auto repair. Brake jobs provide some good examples. There are places that advertise pad replacement (one axle, front or rear) for $79.95. A typical price for me to do it is $175. Looks like a rip off, doesn’t it? But it’s generally not an apples-to-apples comparison.

I use premium grade brake pads. My cost on them is often three times my cost for the budget grade pads. But the premium pads work quieter, stop better, and last longer – sometimes two to three times longer – than the budget pads. I make a competent and honest evaluation of related parts, such as rotors and calipers, and most of the time find those parts to be in good serviceable condition, not needing replacement. I tend to the details, making sure the caliper slides are moving freely, cleaning the grooves or clips the pads slide in, and using high-quality grease at the proper locations. The result is a quiet, well-working, long-lasting job.

The cheapy places usually try to upsell to better grade pads (more ). They tend to have entry-level help who are trained to sell rather than to develop good mechanical judgment. They often claim that rotors and or calipers need to be replaced, and their prices for those items are often higher -- sometimes a lot higher -- than mine (much more ). Virtually nobody gets out the door for $79.95, and bills of $400-600 are not uncommon. Now who sounds like a rip off?

I met someone who complained about a shop charging $40 (each, example price as it varies from car to car) for brake rotors, when she could find them on the internet for $20. She thought that was a rip off. Now, if I were in the business of buying rotors by the boxcar load, I could probably sell them for $20 as well. But I buy mine a pair at a time, probably for $25 my cost. You don’t stay in business selling stuff for what it cost you, so I mark them up to $40. You want $20 rotors? Buy them off the internet and install them yourself. You want me to replace them? Buy them from me and pay my price. I’d say it’s not a rip off, but a different business model. They’re selling a part, I’m selling a repair.

I teach a Communiversity class called Carsmarts. Part of it is how to find a good shop. I make the point that it can take years to acquire enough mechanical knowledge to protect yourself from potential rip offs. Alternatively, in just a few hours you can learn how to find an honorable and competent shop that will treat you fairly. They won’t be the cheapest shop in town, but they won’t gouge you and won’t sell you stuff you don’t need. You won’t need to worry about whether or not you’re being ripped off.

Depending on the situation, there are a ton of different answers to “how do I avoid being ripped off”. In this case specifically I would have done as much of the following as time allowed:

  1. Use Google!
    1a. look up the specific part for my year and make of car and get pricing
    1b. look up reviews and pricing for as many mobile window repair companies as I could find
    1c. look up “how to” sites for that particular repair to get a feel for the difficulty
  2. use a smartphone app to get an idea of labor rates in the surrounding area
  3. for those shops where I could not find pricing info online, call them and ask
  4. ask family and friends for recommendations
  5. have the repair company give me an estimate prior to dispatching a tech
  6. have the tech verify the estimate before beginning the job

The above assumes I had no prior knowlege of that particular repair. Use your own knowlege and experience to fill in the blanks where possible.

The only times I have to do this are for my car. Fortunately, I and my partner know enough about computers between us to do our own repairs. But the process I go through would translate well to computer repairs:

I find out I need a repair. I google the issue along with the year/make/model of my car to define what repair may be needed. I try to look up how long it will take, and what part(s) will be needed. I peruse car enthusiast message boards to find out how much other people have paid for similar repairs/parts/services in the past (in my area if I can, but that info is not usually available).

If my research fails, or if I get conflicting information, I create a thread here. There are a lot of dopers who have helped me in the past with auto repair questions–Gary comes immediately to mind, but there are several others. Once I’ve got a good idea of the repair, labor, and needed parts, I look at local Yelp reviews to find the least-shady-sounding repair shop. I don’t have to do this anymore because I have a good shop now, but I did the first time and it worked out well. You could use Angie’s List I guess, but I’m not signed up for that. Then get a quote. If it sounds severely out-of-line, ask questions. At this point, I may reach out to my social network (coworkers, Facebook) if they think I’m being charged an unfair price or whether I simply need to adjust my expectations. I have a cousin who works on cars in his spare time, and he’s usually a good resource for basic stuff. But usually I feel sufficiently secure with the information I have and the pricing that this step isn’t needed.

Money is a precious resource for me. If I made a lot of money, I wouldn’t feel as compelled to go to these lengths.

Hey look, **Gary **posted in this thread! (or **Gary T **as I should have said, but didn’t remember) You’re the best, dude.

They’re always inflated when the customer doesn’t know how to do the job. If the customer knew how, then the repair dude would not be able to charge a damn thing. Sorry for revisiting your window repair against your wishes, but he could haved charged you $5,000, and if you had consented beforehand - and if your window did indeed get repaired - then there was no ripoff, even if he only spent 5 minutes to install a 5-dollar part.

Ripoffs happen when people get lied to - about the nature/duration of the work, the specific breakdown of costs for parts/labor, or the nature of the problem that you called about in the first place.

So when you get the diagnosis and repair quote, start asking questions.

It can be hard to tell if someone is lying about costs, but the standard business practice involves getting multiple quotes for parts and/or labor. Broken car window? Call three repair shops with no connection to each other (e.g. don’t call three different Honda dealerships), and ask what they’ll charge. It’s unlikely that all three are lying - and even if they are, someone will be low, and your best bet is to go with them. Not a guarantee that that guy is being honest, but better odds than the other two.

Want further assurance? Ask him specifics on his costs. How much for the parts? How much for labor? Do some investigation on parts prices at your local auto parts store. If his parts prices are higher than the local AutoZone parts store, maybe he’s picking it up himself, and so it’s entirely fair for him to charge a premium for his time investment before he even goes to work installing it in your car. If he’s charging a $100 premium, ask him wazzupwidat. Maybe he’s got a valid reason, or maybe he’ll come down if you tell him you’ll just get the parts from Autozone yourself and pay him to install them.

If the time estimate for a repair seems suspiciously high, ask one of your friends who is knowledgeable about such things, or visit a discussion forum dedicated to your particular vehicle (I don’t give a shit what your vehicle is - somewhere out there, there’s a forum where enthusiasts are chattering away about it). Be aware that for car repairs, access is often half the battle: a mechanic may need an hour just to remove parts so that he can access the broken part, then another hour to put it all back together.

Some (all?) states require than if a car part gets replaced, the shop has to give you the part they removed from your car. The exception is if it has to be sent back to the manufacturer for a warranty claim, or you voluntarily surrender the part for a core refund (some used parts, like brake calipers, get sold to be rebuilt). And in those cases, you should still be allowed to inspect the part yourself. If you’re smart, you’ll have the mechanic point out the broken part on your before the work starts. Look for identifying marks and unique nicks and dirt smudges so that you’re more likely to notice a substitution later on. The broken part might get cleaned up before it’s presented to you for inspection later, but if you do see those sorts of marks, you can at least be confident that that’s the part that used to be on your car.

Some people freak when they notice a car dealer charges $100+ per hour of labor. They thing “holy shit, that’s more than I make,” without realizing all of the expenses that need to be covered above and beyond the salary of the mechanic. Tools, supplies, building maintenance, electricity, liability insurance, property taxes, the list goes on and on - and if you want them to work on your car, you’ll need to pay your fair share of those expenses, along with the mechanic’s time. Greasy no-name car repair shops may charge substantially less, but don’t expect soft music, coffee and cookies in the waiting room.

Ah, a lawyer. :slight_smile:

Things that have tipped me off that the person I’m talking to is trying to rip me off:

  • the explanation is hurried, inconsistent, and possibly illogical
  • my questions are shut down in a way that makes me feel stupid
  • insisting on answers gets met with anger, condemnation, or threats of dire consequences
  • no other options are given
  • the choice has to be made right now

Years ago, I had a problem with my car overheating. It would be fine for the first ten or fifteen minutes or driving, and then the temperature gauge would go straight to the redline. I took it to a car repair place, and the mechanic started nodding before I was halfway through my explanation. Oh, it was a this thing repair, and the this thing repair absolutely had to be done, or my engine’s absquatulator would end up falling off and/or exploding, and then the repair would be ten times as much. Trying to get an explanation of why the absquatulator would work the first ten minute and then fail every single time got me a very condescending “don’t worry your little head about it, missy” dismissal. Asking if there were a temporary fix that would allow me to limp along to the next paycheck was shut down. Only irresponsible, drunken car rapists would do such a thing. And so on.

Well, against my better judgment (because I was insecure, intimidated, and believed that Pee Wee Herman knew more about cars than I did), I paid for the repair. It took twice as long as he said, and when I got my car back, the engine ran fine for ten minutes of driving and then overheated.

Rrrrrrrrr.

I took it back, expecting an apology and some tweaking. What I got was ‘well, we have to fix the absquatulator first, and if that doesn’t work, then we replace the transmogrifier.’ And it was four times more expensive than the last repair. And there were no other options. And I had to give him permission to do the repair before the end of the day. IIRC, I had to leave the car there as it wouldn’t make it back to my place without overheating, and I already had a ride waiting. But, when I got back to my computer, I posted on the Dope and gave the details. In thirty minutes, I had three people agreeing that it was the thermostat valve, a repair that took one piddling part and thirty piddling minutes to do.

So, I went back and told the guy to replace the thermostat valve. He tried to argue with me, and I finally stood my ground, told him to do the repair, and to put the broken part in my hand. Now, ideally, I should have taken my car to another shop, but I was low on time and emotional resiliency. Still, the look of thwarted anger on his face was a dead giveaway. He would have suckered me as many times as he could, not caring that I was tight on money and couldn’t afford not to have a car.

The traits I listed above are red flags for me in dealing with others. I kept a short change artist from robbing me when I worked a register by refusing to be rushed. I’ve walked out on dates when the guy started planting those flags, and I quit a job when I saw the business owner treating her customers that way. I’ve never regretted keeping an eye out for those traits and acting on my intuition.

There is a big scam going on in Los Angeles with mobile auto body people. They approach people in parking lots on even on the road. They offer a cheaper than body shop price to fix dents, etc.
You pull over. They basically put a lot of pink stuff (wax?) over the 'repaired" part and tell you not to touch it for a day while it ‘sets’ or ‘dries’ or mysteriously heals the car. Wonder how I know this! So, they take your cash and disappear, leaving you with gobs of pink wax to remove.