I’m sorry but all I’ve been trying to do since your first post in this thread is to make sense of your words. It 23 years? 2 years? Because you’re a woman? Because you were disabled? ? Your story story has been extremely difficult to follow.
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Even leaving aside your previous insults, this kind of response strips you of any credibility. To assert that i have not been thoughtful or receptive to the opinions of others in any of my posts in this 6 page thread is laughable. Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you took issue with anything in particular and cogently articulated why you feel that way. But this stuff is just petty and childish. But carry on as you see fit. Your level of vitriol is odd, to say the least. I’ve never even seen your screenname once in all the years I’ve been here.
I think the entire issue can be summed up with this: “meaning well” is the whole issue. The underlying belief that motivates all the (legitimate) good natured help is that we are helpless and need and appreciate help in every instance, even when we say we dont. It puts us in a box where we cant even criticize their actions because they “meant well”. And if we DO criticize or point out this behavior, the focus becomes us and our anger at our disabilities. That way we are dismissed without any introspection on the part of the do gooders. So the cycle continues endlessly.
I think with this I will bow out from any further participation in this thread. It has run its course as far as useful dialogue. I appreciate everyone who took the time to participate. And i mean everyone.
I would probably feel annoyed, and I know this from how I’ve felt in numerous instances of a roughly analogous situation. But I recognize this as my relative immaturity and a lack of mastery.
The rich man is the one who can afford to be generous. The strong man is the one who makes others feel strong even though he could kick all their asses.
If the guy is selfishly helping you for his own sake, then the generous response is to give him his moment. A big man recognizes he’s the big man, and graciously grants the lesser man, this Philistine, his illusion of having done a good deed. In so doing, he’s actually the one who does the good deed.
A lesser man, a small man, needs to prove, like a child, that he can do things all by himself. He gets upset about his small, downtrodden, victim status. He feels he’s always at someone’s mercy. But that’s backwards: the guy who opened the door is at YOUR mercy. We all are. Be the big man.
Your annoyance is understandable and is one of the stages you’ll pass through on the way to becoming the master of situations like this.
You know, you’re right, I was wrong. I just went back and re-read the OP, and I was conflating what he said out loud (you’re doing it for yourself) with his inner monologue (he was doing it to reinforce my place in the social stratus). Which means that several of my recent posts in this thread are entirely incorrect. Sorry about that!
On the subject of the second claim, I think the question is, would this guy have acted precisely the same way if he’d seen a totally able bodied person walking towards the door while carrying a huge awkward looking package? I don’t see any reason to think he wouldn’t. (Although obviously there’s no way to know at this point).
I spent about a week in a wheelchair once. Bit of a stupid incident left me with a dislocated hip. I was young and it heeled up quickly enough, though.
During this time of being in a wheelchair, I appreciated any offers of help. Everything was harder for me. If a door didn’t have an automatic opener, opening that door was a real pain in the ass. Even if it did, they usually took long enough to open that having someone who was willing to jog up and hit the button before I got there was appreciated, as that let me just roll through without having to come to a stop and then get going again. Now, this was an injury I was looking to get over, not a permanent or long term situation that I needed to learn to deal with, so I had no need of pride or independence, I just needed to get through until I was healthy enough to walk safely again.
And it was pretty awesome, in some ways, seeing that humans actually were willing to go out of their way to help a fellow human that they perceived in need. I appreciated the offers and the assistance not just in that they made my life easier, but that they also made me feel better about being a part of a species that would consider the welfare of those around them.
So, if I see someone in a wheelchair, that’s the feeling I have, not that they are helpless, but that everything is harder for them than it is for me. I would likely be that guy, knowing what it is like to try to deal with doors on your own, and taking your refusal of assistance as a declining of a desire for me to use my time for your benefit, that you were refusing out of courtesy, rather than out of a true desire to do it on your own. And, to be honest, the more emphatic your turning down of the offer, the more likely it is to be dismissed, nothing to do with your status in a wheelchair, but everything to do with the way that people perceive other people.
Yes, the guy did it for him, not for you. He did it because it makes him feel good to help other people that seem to need help. He didn’t ignore your refusal, he took your refusal to be a courtesy that most people have of rejecting offers of help. I know I’ve turned down offers of assistance, even when they would have been appreciated, with the hope that they will insist and that I can then take them up on their offer.
But, just because the guy did it for himself, that he did it in order to feel better about himself for having taken a moment out of his day to help a fellow human being that he
mistakenly perceived that a small effort on his part would be a great assistance on yours, does not mean that he did it to you, or to harm or diminish you in any way. He did do it with the intention of making your day easier. He did do it with the intent of making himself feel better, for having helped someone.
You statement to him was, IMHO unfairly, accusatory towards his motives in helping you out. It probably does decrease the chances that he show empathy towards others in the future, it probably means that he will ignore someone needing assistance in order to not receive a dressing down for doing what he thought was the right thing. A calm voice means nothing in that context. Every employee I have ever fired, I have done so with a calm voice. It is the content of the words, rather than the presentation that is stinging. Had you continued to be animated and shouted your statement at him, it probably would have been perceived as less hostile, than scathing words delivered in a controlled manner and tone.
This does not invalidate your feelings, in any way, however. He did not respect your wishes, and applied his own judgement to your situation over your own. When people do that, you have every right to treat them with hostility. They caused you harm, and even if it wasn’t meant, you did warn them that their proposed course of action would cause you harm. The way I see it, it was like you telling him that if he performs the course of action he proposes, then you will get hit in the face. He performs those actions, you get hit in the face, and so you punch him back. Perfectly understandable to anyone who sees the full context of the situation, though probably less so to him.
The problem here is not this one guy, the problem is that you are in a society that is full of people who want to be of assistance. There are many people out there who will see your situation, and want to try to make things just a bit easier for you, the way that they would hope that someone would do for them. That is a problem that I really hope does not go away. Even misguided empathy is better than callous indifference, IMHO.
So, the question really is, is how do you get people to stop doing things for you. Well, to some extent, you can’t. You cannot change human nature, and if you could, I would prefer that you didn’t. People will always see that, in your situation, they have the capability of making your life a bit easier, and will offer to do so.
The way to get people to listen is to better communicate, and waving your arms and shouting are certainly ways to be noticed, but they are actually very poor forms of communication. I would only slightly facetiously say that a good way to get people to not hold doors for you is to ask them to do so. Had you yelled out to the guy as he was getting into his car, “Hey, could you get out of your car, run up to the building, and hold the door open for me?” you would have likely discovered that he has a hearing disability of his own.
But, in seriousness, of all the stories I’ve seen on here of people being upset about being offered things that they didn’t want, I didn’t see anyone thank the offered for their assistance. “No, I can’t take your cookies, I need to be careful about what I eat, but I do appreciate the offer.” They want to be accepted and thought of as a nice person, and the way that they know how to do that is to offer things to others. Rejecting the offer is rejecting that they are thought of as a nice person, making them even more instantiate that their offer needs to be accepted. Refusing the content of the offer, while still appreciating the offer itself allows them to have the feeling of having sincerely attempted to do a good thing, while not actually performing the act. “No, thank you.” doesn’t really cut it, as it is at best rote, and is often used sarcastically, and is perceived sarcastically slightly more often. It also means that they keep offering you stuff, and there may be a day that they offer something that you do want. I also means that if you need something from them, they are much more likely to do what you ask, than if you rudely dismiss their offers.
“I do appreciate the offer”, in a sincere and level voice, tells the offerer that they have been heard, their offer has been considered, their offer has been appreciated, but that it is not something that is necessary at this time. Both parties can leave feeling better about themselves, with neither obligated to perform or to receive any type of good or service.
In the end, communication is about getting others to understand what it is that you want them to do. If there is a person who won’t listen, then that is on that person. If there are a few people who ignore what you say, then those people are assholes. If everyone overrides your instructions, then it may be on you to change your method of communication.
But the reality for us is these are one and the same. The end result is callous indifference to our needs and desires. The intent doesn’t really matter when it comes to end result. If an act of “misguided empathy” ends up in the do-gooder performing an action that actually hurts us more than an act of “callous indifference” would in the same situation, what benefit is this " misguided empathy" and how is it better than the callousness? How, in your opinion, would callous indifference have been worse in this situation?
(sorry, I know I said I was bowing out but I feel this lengthy response deserves at least a bit of a reply).
Missed edit window: and you are assuming that these people are able to be reached by us wheelchair users when trying to decline their offers, we just haven’t got it right yet. Thats just funny. We are invisible man. Invisible and our words dont matter. These people have their minds made up and no degree of friendliness or affability or charm or whatever is going to dissuade them. Trust me, ive tried each and every way.
Is the only alternative to misguided empathy really callous indifference?
This is always how the issue is presented, it’s one or the other. Either I accept mistreatment that is “coming from a good place” or I accept mistreatment that is coming from an uncaring place. Either way, I’m told to accept mistreatment.
I won’t quibble with the rest of you wrote because I think it was a fair and well-thought response, but I do disagree with the above. “No, thank you” should cut it; it’s a complete sentence and it politely answers the question posed. The problem is when people don’t want to accept that because they feel entitled to more. That sounds uncharitable but that’s what it is. As you said, they want to feel like a nice, helpful person. But just because an opportunity to be helpful presents itself doesn’t mean it is owed to anyone. Expecting someone to essentially justify why they don’t want your help speaks to a entitled mindset.
Anyone who has rejected date offers from annoyingly persistent people should be able to relate this. Few things are as maddening as when a simple “no, but thanks” provokes either repeated entreaties or an interrogation. It’s also a sure fire way to make what is already nerve-wracking even moreso. To have a rejection accepted, why is it necessary for someone to explain why? The reason for a rejection shouldn’t be up for debate.
Similarly, if someone is shoving a cookie in front of your face and your repeatedly say “no, thanks” why does it become incumbent on you to say more than that to stop the madness? You might want to avoid allergens, you might be watching their carb intake, or you might simply not like the taste of Cookie Monster’s baking. It’s actually rude to expect someone to disclose to you what they obviously have chosen not to volunteer.
In Ambivalid’s situation, he actually did explain why he didn’t want help. He waved his hands “no” and he explained that having the door opened actually inconveniences him. It’s possible dude didn’t hear him, but assuming he did, it seems to me a Door Man crossed the line into rudeness, even if his intentions were noble.
Offering is fine. Insisting is not.
No means no.
People should stop playing games where they say no when they mean yes. If you say no hoping the other party will insist anyway then you are part of the problem.
You say Ambivalid isn’t communicating. That is untrue. He is communicating very well. The other party, however, is not listening.
Misguided empathy and callous indifference are in fact harmful. The fact you basically say that people with disabilities just need to put up with it is also callous indifference to their needs as human beings.
To me, intent does matter. You are looking only at your own situation, which is fine, that is the only situation you are responsible for. You are in a situation that most people do not encounter often, and do not know the proper way to react. And as the cop analogy upthread implies, it’s not really fair to take it out on the 20th person who was ignorant that day, even if that was the 20th person who was ignorant to you that day.
Most of the time, empathy is going to make a person make more egalitarian decisions, even if ignorance makes them less than optimal. Empathy means that the person may try to learn how to better assist, even if that assistance is solely staying out of the way.
Callous indifference means that if something happens, and you do need help, help will not be coming.
Sorry, didn’t mean to drag you back in, I just had some thoughts to share, based on my experiences, and my limited understanding of human nature.
I think that most people, no matter their capabilities, have difficulties turning down offers with grace in such a way as to leave both the offerer and the reluctant recipient feeling as though it was a positive interaction. People also have difficulties in listening to anyone.
I certainly see how your position magnifies this, and causes you more harm than it would someone just trying to refuse a cookie, but I don’t see the reason for it having anything to do with their perceptions of you as a person.
I appreciate your position, and do get that you are the victim of social pressures that cause people to do things that you would rather not have them do. I don’t have a solution, at the very most, I have some little pieces of advice and observation that may help in some limited ways. But, you have said that what you are doing isn’t working, so I was just being expressing possibly ignorant empathy by trying to be of assistance.
It is not one or the other, it is that those are the two extremes on the scale.
The vast, vast, vast majority of people fall well within a more moderate position, but you don’t notice the vast, vast, vast majority, you notice the outliers. And the outliers are going to be people that, by definition, are not a moderate position. So, yes, outliers in the “How much are you willing to do for your fellow man” do fall largely into extreme categories.
And I will agree that it should, however, many years of experience have told me that it doesn’t. I could either complain that it doesn’t, and I could complain about that to each and every one of the people that I encounter that want to offer something, or I can be the one that adapts, and lower my frustration level substantially.
I’m pragmatic, and results matter to me. If my having lessened frustrations results in people coming away from the interaction feeling good about themselves, then that’s something that I can accept.
“I appreciate the offer” doesn’t justify why you don’t want it, it just acknowledges that they tried to be helpful, and that you appreciate that in a fellow human being.
The dating thing is a bit different, as it is not something that they are wanting to do for you, but something that they are wanting you to do for them. In any case, that’s a whole different thread.
It shouldn’t be, but do you want them to stop shoving a cookie in your face, or do you want to continue to complain about them shoving a cookie in your face?
And I don’t know that explaining why you don’t want help is useful. When people start explaining “why” anything, most people stop listening. That’s just the way people are. I’d love to change it, but I don’t think that it is going to happen any time soon.
I do not recommend explaining why, just acknowledging, and appreciating, but declining the offer. And I do not think that it will work in all, or even most cases, but I am sure it will work in some, and should there be a few situations a day that are less unpleasant and frustrating, I consider that to be a good thing, even if in the process, you make someone else feel good about themselves that didn’t deserve to feel good about themself.
If someone offers something, they may not really want to follow through on their offer. By politely refusing, you give them the opportunity to rescind their offer without actually residing their offer. If they offer again, it means they actually wanted to do it.
It’s not the most efficient method, but it is part of our culture if not human nature itself, and how things just are. We can complain, but that’s not going to change anything.
Communication happens when people understand the concepts that you want them to understand. Who’s fault that is is irrelevant, the fact that they are not receiving what you want them to know is. You can either complain that people are not listening on your frequency, or you can change your frequency.
I did not say any such things. I gave some perspectives on why people are going to do this, and continue to do this. I did not say in any way shape or form that anyone at all just needs to put up with it, and certainly not people with disabilities.
What I did point out was the realities of the situation, and some potential strategies for dealing with it, which is the exact opposite of telling someone to just put up with it, as if the situation is in any way my within my influence, and it is only my callous indifference that causes it to occur.
It doesn’t matter a whole lot to me. People can’t see intent. They can only see action.
To go back to the Cookie Monster Fairy example, it doesn’t matter to me whether my coworker keeps shoving cookies on me because she shows love by sharing food, she’s worried I’m not eating enough, she’s jealous of my hot smoking bod and wants to wreck it, or she gets a tingle between her legs when she sees people eating. Regardless of her motivation, her pushiness is annoying. Thinking the happiest thoughts about her doesn’t change that.
The world doesn’t need blind and superficial niceness. Random acts of kindness can lift certainly spirits, but they can also creep people the fuck out and cause unnecessary awkwardness. No, what the world needs more of is more respect and thoughtfulness. A guy holding a door when he’s told his help is not wanted may be doing a “nice” thing, but he isn’t being respectful. All Ambi did was to let him know this. It’s really not that big of a deal.
It just seems like you just want to lecture Ambivalid for no good reason. And the quoted passage supports this. Ambivalid losing his temper on a dumbass is not going to increase “callous indifference” in the world. At worst, it will make a guy less likely to hold a door open for anyone (the horrors! people might actually have to expend calories for their own sake!) At best, Ambi’s lecture will make the guy more sensitive to the words “no, thanks” going forward. Maybe I’m idealistic, but I think the latter is more likely than the former.
And this?
Well, you got me. I guess I’m a callous indifferent bitch because I don’t think my “No, thank you. I’m good.” requires additional information. If you heard someone tell you this every time you made them an offer, would you try to push them into saying “yes”? Because I don’t think most people would. And it’s funny. When I finally did offer an explanation (a phony one to spare her feelings), it wasn’t sufficient since I got “reminded” that I’m so skinny (I am not). Yes, she was probably thinking she was being complimentary. But again, this matters little to me because commenting on my body is ALSO annoying. It just confirmed to me that some people are clueless and you have to risk hurting their feelings to get them off of yours.
I don’t actually think I’m a callous or indifferent person. I’m always the first person to offer my coworker assistance with something. I am always quick with assurances when she tells me no one likes her or she’s doing poorly on the job. I pay her compliments. As long as Ambivalid has a similar spirit with the people around him, he has nothing to fear about increasing “callous indifference” in the world. It is not his responsibility to worry about this anyway. His main responsibility is making sure that his boundaries aren’t stomped on by pushy, clueless people. We all need to care about ourselves in this respect, IMHO.
First of all, I do appreciate your well thought out response. I agree with the thrust of your thoughts.
And I’m not just speaking for myself, I’m speaking for a large swath of wheelchair users. And I know what the definitions of empathy and callous indifference are. I’m saying that, in my case and the case of many others in similar situations, the effects of the misguided empathy are actually worse than if they had been treated with callous indifference in the same situation.
“Intent”, or “good intent” is really the meat of the issue. It’s what prevents anyone from ever doing anything any differently (or rarely so). The good intentions are something that no one can ever take issue with, or at least shouldn’t. What I take issue with is why those admittedly good intentions are perceived that way in the first place. It’s why I characterize the issue as societal, not individual. Society has instilled the notion that wheelchair users are helpless and always in need of assistance, and when they decline any offer, it’s really because of something other than what they say and they really want and would appreciate that help.
I want good intentions that are not misguided. I want that as the rule. Just like people in general. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule that everyone will experience from time to time. But I reject the notion that my only options are to accept misguided but well intended empathy or *true *callous indifference, rather than perceived indifference. Both options result in harm for the recipient in these types of cases. I have sustained damage, albeit minor, on my car because someone couldn’t take no for an answer and took it upon themselves to put my wheelchair into my car for me (just as one example). Who determines what is or isn’t callous indifference? Me? Them? I think the same misguided empathy can lead to a misguided sense of what is or isn’t callous indifference to some people. I think a large section of people would describe not getting the door for me as “callous indifference”, even though I yearn for such behavior lol. In the entire 18 years I have used a chair, I never once have experienced what I would consider callous indifference, other than callous indifference to what I state as being the best thing for me re offers of help. Callous indifference to a real need for help I’ve never experienced. Callous indifference for my autonomy as a functioning adult I have experienced.
I think one thing that is not or seldom brought up is when someone is out in the world by themselves, a certain level of independence should be automatically recognized. Like, I wouldn’t be at the mall by myself if I needed help with every damn thing conceivable. I wouldn’t be driving my car alone if I needed help getting in and out of it. I wouldn’t be sitting in the food court with a plate of food if I needed help feeding myself (not a personal experience but one of a fellow wheeler). But people think, even if I could do it myself, hey, I would appreciate someone taking some of the load off my shoulders. What is seen as “struggling” or “needing help” is fundamentally different for wheelchair users/disabled people than it is for regular able-bodied folks. I don’t need to have a lapful of packages to be seen as in need of help. Doing anything from the point of a wheelchair is seen as awkward and “struggling” because it is so different from what people are accustomed to seeing. They are accustomed to seeing the action performed by an able-bodied person, so when the same action is performed competently but (sometimes) radically different by a person in a wheelchair, it is perceived as struggling and help is offered.
Have you thought that perhaps the CMF is actively trying to piss you off? From your telling, this is a thing she does all the freakin’ time. So I’d suggest, absent a degree of intellectual disability or maybe hanging somewhere on the autism spectrum, she knows that it annoys the fuck out of you and this is the way she gets her jollies. And it seems that she is onto a winning strategy.
Ambi certainly thinks it’s a big deal, having posted about the exact same case, almost word for word roughly a year or so ago. And surely, if it’s a thing that happens all the time (as he has claimed), in the past year he might have been able to come up with another example or twenty?
I’d almost think you doubted my sincerity. Almost.
First off, I didn’t re-post the incident for any reason other than I was having a real life conversation about it, I wanted to expand the convo here, and I forgot that I had already made a thread a year and a half ago. Das it.
Secondly, as I’ve said numerous times already, these types of things do happen all the time. In the overwhelmingly vast majority of instances, they just bounce off of me and I do not react in any way whatsoever. It is in only the most egregious of instances where I do “pick my battles” and choose to respond. This incident was one of the more blatant incidences (but definitely not the worst) in recent memory, which is why I chose to write about it. I “claimed” what I claimed because it’s my life and it’s the truth. Is it more comfortable for you to believe I am somehow being less than honest?