I don’t know why SBF bears any relation to any other non-crypto entrepreneur. Crypto-anything is a scam and anything built on that is a scam. That should not have been a surprise to anyone, but apparently it was.
Tesla and SpaceX produce actual products that are the best in their class. It’s just not remotely comparable.
Can you at least summarize the points in that video? It appears to be clickbait trash from the title card.
The person who made the video is Adam Conover. He had a series for four years called “Adam Ruins Everything” where he would debunk various things.
He also had a show on Netflix called, “The G-Word” which focused on topics relating to the US government. The show was produced by Barack Obama and his wife Michelle.
You might still think it is clickbait trash but the person making it has some legit background.
I summarized what it was about in my previous post. He notes that these often lauded businessmen are not all they are cracked up to be and provides evidence for that.
Ok. I’ve seen a few of his things before (sorry, didn’t recognize the face), and found them sorta acceptable if you knew nothing going in, but they’re a bit hyperbolic and strawmanny and are not exactly error-free (just to test, I watched the “Adam Ruins Voting” clip, and it gets things wrong within the first 30 seconds).
Fine, I’ll watch the video later and present my feedback. I don’t think it’s exactly controversial to say that there’s more to the story than what is commonly known. But I’m not going to be impressed if it goes on and on about ElOn DiDnT rEaLlY fOUnD tEsLa!!1!
Not familiar with SpaceX but Teslas have never been best in class. They’re the most popular with EV early adopters, and that’s let a lot of customers forgive the poor build quality and production delays, but as the selection broadens there seems to be more and more discontent with the brand. I think the next few years will see Musk fall out of the Top 10 in the riches category as TSLA drops to a more realistic valuation (under $100).
What do production delays have to do with product quality? Other manufacturers avoid delays (well, not really–many of them are still late) by setting such unambitious targets that they couldn’t help but hit them.
The build quality issues are real, but are more than made up for by other advantages. The Supercharger network is part of the product, and is undeniably superior to the competition even today. A few years ago, the difference was even more stark.
The software stack on Teslas is also undeniably superior to the competition. Slow, janky, barely usable software is a quality defect present in other brands, but not Tesla.
I recently got a recall notice from Tesla saying there was a defect in the power window force limiter. It’s the kind of fairly minor issue that comes with all brands; I had several issues with my BMW of a similar scale. The difference is that the notice simply said that I’d receive a software update that would fix the issue and no action was required on my part. Instead of carving out half a day to head to the dealership (or more, because BMW service was a nightmare).
And for that matter, the lack of dealerships is itself a quality advantage.
I will happily trade away a couple minor paint defects for these advantages.
And while it doesn’t relate to product quality, the fact is that Tesla is producing these cars at a far higher rate, and more profitably, than the competition. They have significant room to cut prices if consumers decide that they value traditional value metrics. In most markets, they haven’t needed to do this (though I did see something about price cuts in China).
…I think that, in context, what epbrown was saying is quite clear. What do production delays have to do with product quality? They are both things that Tesla customers are willing to forgive.
Well, ok. epbrown was replying to my comment about “best in class” and usually production delays don’t enter into that.
Pretty much all EVs are seeing extreme wait times. Just look at this list:
6+ months is commonplace, with less than that being the exception. The demand is incredible across the board, which I am happy about, although some of these are probably better blamed on the supply side.
Does Tesla have a long history of missing deadlines? No doubt. But they do deliver, eventually, and often with a better product than what was promised.
Adam’s not exactly wrong about Zuckerberg and Elon Musk, but he oversimplifies what is a collection of problems with this country. Namely our obsession with massive wealth and celebrity status. How many times has there been some high profile thing in the news about some “genius” or “geniuses” coming up with some fantastic “next big thing”, only to find out later that it was total bullshit?
I that respect I don’t disagree. It’s not quite limited to geniuses either; over and over we see hype for some big new thing (battery technology, cancer treatments, etc.), only to find that either it’s much less of a step than advertised or it’s just complete nonsense.
If he wants to tear down the idea of “Elon invented electric cars!” or “Elon is Iron Man!”, more power to him. That doesn’t mean we can’t look realistically at what Tesla actually has achieved, which is still remarkable.
A good friend of mine ordered a GMC ICE pick-up 14 months ago for supposedly immediate delivery. 2 weeks ago they canceled his order unfulfilled. Via email from the factory; they didn’t even have the courtesy to tell his dealership first and have them phone him personally with the bad news. This is an $80K bog-standard old-tech vehicle with ginormous margins. They still grossly overpromised and utterly undelivered.
Punchline: Yes, production problems are not limited to just Tesla.
Huh; I didn’t know the situation was that bad for (at least some) ICE vehicles, too. Guess the supply problems are still real.
The way I see it, supply problems and inflation both stem from the same issue: a massive drop in worker productivity (probably worse than what’s reported, which is already bad). Same demand, not enough stuff: high prices and low supply.
My understanding is that, at least in the case of new cars, the ongoing shortage of computer chips is still one of the driving factors, as well.
Elon tends to want extreme vertical integration at his companies and so I think the rumors of him dipping a toe in the semiconductor field are probably legit. While it might not be the most cost efficient way to do things, in the situation we’re in with supply shortages it seems like depending on contractors and other manufacturers for major pieces of your product is a really bad idea lately.
I’d be surprised at them acquiring a fab, though I would not be surprised at them designing their own chips. They’ve already done so with their AI accelerator (both inside the cars and for AI training). Cars have zillions of microcontrollers in them and shortages of particular ones has been a real issue. It doesn’t matter if 95% of the ones you use are available if the last 5% are not. Fabbing their own microcontrollers would eliminate that risk.
Nice interview with Franz von Holzhausen (Tesla Chief Designer) here:
One thing Musk is inarguably good at is finding people who are:
a) Extremely talented and driven
b) Stuck in a position where their talents are underutilized
Franz was stuck at Mazda doing the same old boring thing over and over. Tom Mueller (retired propulsion engineer at SpaceX) was stuck at TRW designing engines that would never fly, and was so bored that he built rocket engines in his garage. And Gwynne Shotwell (president at SpaceX) was stuck at some podunk aerospace company spinning her wheels.
All crucial to the success of Tesla and SpaceX. And I’m sure there are many more I don’t know about.
You know that’s a PR piece right? The guy isn’t going to say “Well, he was a bit of an ass, but he did offer to buy me a horse, so I guess that’s ok.”
There was a job opening. He applied. He was very qualified. He was hired.
Musk didn’t scour the planet looking for this guy, find him at Mazda, and said “Now here’s a guy whose talents are being wasted! Smithers, fetch him at once!”
So why do Tesla and SpaceX’s competitors seem to get all the shit people? Like, say, Bob Smith at Blue Origin, who has been in the industry for 30+ years (including several years at the same company as Gwynne Shotwell) but seemingly can’t manage his way out of a wet paper bag? If it’s that easy to find good people, why are most companies so terrible at it?
Holzhausen’s tenure at Tesla has actually been odd for me. I’ve owned one of his designs (Pontiac Solstice GXP) and it was always a conversation starter. He did seem to be reigned in at the traditional car companies, and I was expecting Teslas to be much more dramatic-looking due to him. Aside from the falcon-wing doors on the Type X, he’s been pretty tame for having a blank slate for over a decade. There’s the Cybertruck, but I suspect that’s Elon’s thing with his input added to make it actually useable.
Are you sure some of that isn’t from just getting used to the designs? The “nosecone” on the original Model S, the revamped slit “grille” on the newer S, the totally covered nose of the 3, etc. were all considered fairly unconventional, though with 10+% of the cars around here being Teslas, they no longer stand out at all.
Franz seems to have a pretty good gig. He gets to spend part of his time on less-conventional stuff like the Cybertruck/Roadster/Semi, and the rest of the time on just mildly pushing the boundaries on more mass-market stuff like the S or 3. It would get boring to work solely on one or the other.
These things are subjective, but to me the cybertruck looks awful. Comically awful.
Also, if he’s the one who designed the Tesla to be hard to get out of if the battery catches fire, then he will have blood on his hands. I suspect that was more likely to be Musk though. He strikes me as the type to go “Oh fine, if we absolutely need a safety release, can you least hide it as much as possible. Especially for the rear doors. Nobody ever has anything of value in the rear seats right?”