…yet.
Manzanar and other Japanese-American concentration camps were not nice places to be. That said, they were, of course, very long term as compared to the detainment of immigrants; people were stuck there for years. They were strictly rationed and basic foodstuffs were often in short supply. The shelters frankly sucked, even by the standards of the time.
While that is true, the mass extermination of Jews and other undesirables had already started; the Einsatzgruppen had been slaughtering Jews since 1939 and by 1942 had murdered perhaps two million people. The typical method was either to simply shoot innocent people, or to herd them into a building and burn them all alive. These methods were found inefficient. The solution in “Final Solution” was “How can we murder people more efficiently than we are now?”
As to comparing current U.S. policy to the Holocaust, obviously this isn’t the Holocaust, but it doesn’t have to be to be wrong. The internment of Japanese Americans wasn’t the Holocaust, but it was a horrible thing to do.
It would be interesting, though, to ask Trumpists to define what is and isn’t acceptable before it happens. What’s generally been the trend so far as that it’s after Trump and his minions do something that the question comes up and then Trumpists always rationalize it. NOW is the time to ask them “Is it acceptable to execute illegal immigrants or asylum seekers without trial?” or “Is it acceptable to send American citizens to concentration camps because they are Hispanic, or employed an illegal immigrant, or are related to one?” to get a straight answer before it happens.
I think this is a motto that everyone in this country, of all political stripes, seriously needs to internalize.
You don’t have to be Hitler to be a shitty person. Something doesn’t have to be the Holocaust to be wrong.
For fuck’s sake!
Sounds like they’ve already got policies in place to deal with this, and I wouldn’t call it anything approaching “kidnapping”, so no, it looks like we’ve just got more sky-is-falling hyperbole.
If there isn’t anything really going on here, how come Dear Leader is trying to trade it for his Wall? If its a trivial thing, why would anyone make such a deal? Here, give me billions of dollars for this stupid project, and I will pardon all the overdue library fines for Cleetusville?
About half tempted. Protect the Dreamers, extend a more generous hand to people who have lived here, worked here, and behaved themselves? And Il Douche will stop being such a dick? How about he negotiates with us same way he did with Lil’ Kimmy? We get whatever we want in exchange for some vague promises? Tell a fib to help these kids? Sure, Hell, I’d lie my ass off!
Though I note with regret this may not align with your values.
Whatever one calls it, the sky has crashed in on those kids and their families. But hey, let’s focus on a word rather than the inhumanity going on here.
I admit, I haven’t exactly followed the struggles of the children of illegals with rapt attention, but what do you mean by “the sky has crashed in on those kids and their families”? Because they got caught crossing the border illegally? Would you not say the sky has crashed in on them if they’d managed to successfully evade the authorities? Or are you saying it because they came from some shithole country? Or is it that now they face the prospect of being sent back there?
The murder rate in Honduras and El Salvador is something like 80 times greater the murder rate in Utah.
But somehow you reacting to the fear of almost non-existent violence by buying guns, and freaking out whenever someone mildly suggests some new restrictions on firearms, is NOT being a Chicken Little; but families fleeing much greater violence having their babies removed from them for the whole purpose of making the parents suffer is NOT a big deal.
Jesus Christ, what has happened to people?
Not all people. Republicans. A completely different subset from those with morals and humanity. All they have is money and Hannity.
If you had this exact same policy being proposed by a democrat with a republican lead house and senate, he would be shitted on and thrown out of office with republicans taking the high road claiming democrats are evil baby killers etc… Imagine if Obama even planned to create camps like this, Fox News would be 24/7 shitting on him claiming we need to impeach him immediately. The left would be doing the same as well obviously.
You asked what happen to people, but I think this is human nature. Bare with me, in the past it makes more sense to be in a group than not in a group. It increases your survival and quality of life. So, humans instinctively retaliate towards anyone/anything that they feel threatens their tribe. It’s a defense mechanism, if you attack my tribe I will attack you. In modern times this is applied to politics, when you tell a trump supporter what trumps doing is unethical, they’ll lash back not even considering ethics but simply wishing to defend themselves and their tribe. This is why it’s so difficult to reason with many people including leftists. Now, when you have a large group of Republicans and people who get excited by the things Trump and republicans say, but don’t pay attention or research anything they’ve been told or seen, you get groups of people who are so diluted by identity politics and tribalism that all they can smell is their own shit. They will accept and agree with half to 99% of things said and done by their tribe. Considering they are willing to accept lies that benefit their agenda and beliefs, and unwilling to research, accept reason, and just be rational people in general, it’s no surprise they openly want things like mass deportation, separating kids from their families, and banning certain religions.
It’s not that these people lack ethics, or are just bad people. They’re victims of human nature, victims of their own sense of identity and victims of the hatred and idiocy their tribe commits. As most people know, the leader of these tribes have their own agendas, and just like every democracy ever, they’re exploiting how people feel, what limited knowledge they know, and their tribalism to get across their own agendas. I’m probably relatively young when compared to these forums. However I don’t think this is something new, especially not in America. I think now with abundance of information, rationalization on both the right and left, and sensible people, we’re seeing just how stupid and tribal people are, and how little the political establishments care about this country’s principles, it’s well being, or it’s future. These trump supporters are going to be left up shit creek without a paddle, and it’s there will 100% be another “trump” who’s going to give them a ride in attempts to gain power.
My wife’s parents and other family members spent World War II in a detention camp (Amache, in Colorado) so I’ve heard plenty of first-hand stories.
They slept on cots in barracks-style housing which was thrown up quickly and cheaply. Each barracks was divided into separate rooms, with the entire family in one room, parents and children were kept together. They ate in mess halls and used communal latrines.
But as noted upthread, the camps were intended to be longer-term facilities. The camps had laundry facilities. The internees had schools (I saw one of my mother-in-law’s report cards), they set up churches, held social events, etc. They sent and received mail (although it was censored.) There was some level of health care. My father-in-law played on a baseball team, and learned carpentry as a skill. He said they received newspapers from Denver.
Overall, it sounded to me like the worst Scout camp ever, except they were there for 3 1/2 years and watched by armed guards.
[QUOTE=Barack Obama;21030677Imagine if Obama even planned to create camps like this, Fox News would be 24/7 shitting on him claiming we need to impeach him immediately. [/QUOTE]
We don’t have to imagine. Remember the right wing uproar about “Jade Helm” and how closed Walmarts were going to be used as detention centers? A complete lie, but now that it’s the truth the far right is perfectly happy with it.
It’s comparable insomuch as there’s people forcibly put in places they’d rather not be.
This is ridiculous.
The difference between Obama and Trump’s policies are of scale only. When Obama was president the policy was to arrest and detain those migrants who had been previously arrested for illegal entry. Those who had kids with them were separated and the children detained until relatives could be found to take them. During this time there were many accusations of abuse. Republicans did not try to have Obama impeached and the liberals did not join them.
Since 40% of the people who applied for asylum did not show up for their hearings the Trump administration started detaining everyone who entered illegally and detained them until their hearings. The policy for children was the exact same policy as it had been before but it just applied to many more cases.
Among applicants with children, the figure is 14% for unrepresented applicants and 2% for represented applicants.
So don’t try to justify this travesty with claims about people not showing up for hearings.
Channeling Bricker: If we ignore the moral standpoint, there is a significant difference from a legal standpoint. The Japanese were US citizens who had committed no crimes, while the undocumented immigrants are foreigners who have committed a misdemeanor.
Why is this the important legal point? In both cases, the US government determined that the detention was legal; in neither case was it appropriate to charge those detained (Japanese citizens/young children of immigrants) with crimes.
This. It’s worth remembering that the original ‘final solution’ was merely going to be the expulsion of Jews from Europe.
And Trump’s using words like ‘infest’ to describe the Latino presence in America.
“Sin is when you treat people as things.” - Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
Are you trying to express a concern that Trump might order Latinos to be exterminated, or just proving Godwin’s Law?
What’s the source for this?