Slight hijack: If I have an establishment with a clearly posted no guns policy and a LEO attempts to enter as a customer with one, am I obliged to let him in?
Does it make a difference if it is a Fed LEO vs a local one?
mc
Well, that might be an effective catchphrase in such a class - but in the greater scheme of English usage, “accident” is a word often used to describe the results of these moments of negligence.
(“Johnny fell while climbing a tree and broke his arm - but it wasn’t an accident, he was negligent and failed to grasp the branch correctly” :rolleyes:)
Apparently certain model Sigs used by police do go off if dropped. Lawsuits pending.
You should explain this to the Army LTC who had us carrying our Beretta 9mm in Saudi with no round in the chamber and the safety on. When I told him that carrying it this way went against the explicit instructions I was given during AF Small Arms Training, he said there were too many reports of “Accidental Discharge” (which I knew was bullshit)
So, some people who are supposed to be in a position to know, sometimes order carrying weapons without a round in the chamber.
I can only imagine the mortal danger you must have been in on an arena “Saudi” that would have necessitated having a round in the chamber at all times.
I’m not a gun expert, but as was explained to me, there is absolutely no danger with the model handgun we had of having a round in the chamber with the safety on. So why not? I’m not a big gun guy, but I don’t see the fault in that logic.
Carrying “one in the pipe” is taught by almost all firearms instructors. It is the correct way to carry, wether you’re a police officer or a citizen who conceal carries. There are a few reasons for this:
1: Without a round in the chamber you are basically caring a brick. If your firearm is needed right now, you may not have time to chamber a round.
2: Chambering a round if not done correctly can cause a malfunction, leading to a weapon that won’t fire. This is something you don’t want to experience if your using your firearm for self defense.
3: This is probably the most important reason to carry one in the chamber. Under high stress one of the things affected are your fine motor skills. It is entirely possible that you will not be able to manipulate the slide under extreme stress.
Carrying a firearm with one in the chamber is completely safe as long a you follow the rules of gun safety. The most important is keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire the weapon. All modern firearms have safety devices incorporated into their designs to prevent them from firing if dropped.
The firearm this agent dropped was a Glock, which has no manual safety (a safety that is turned in and off by the user), but has internal safeties that will not allow the firearm to discharge unless the trigger is pulled. That is exactly what happened here. He reached for the pistol and grabbed the trigger. I would suspect that he is going to be severely disciplined for acting so foolishly, as he should be.
This is laughable.
And I’m not even trying to argue that having one in the pipe is a bad idea.
But if you’re under such extreme stress that you can’t rack the slide to chamber a round, you’re in absolutely no condition to discharge the firearm.
On rare occasion I’ll use a Clip-Draw with the pistol in the side pocket of a suit coat or winter jacket. Or I’ll carry it in the front pocket of some jeans with a sweatshirt pulled over it. I have a small, soft nylon pocket holster the pistol also sits in but the clip secures inside the pocket. Because the pocket holster is not hard material covering the trigger guard I felt more comfortable putting that safety on.
An off duty LEO? I’m going to assume (YMMV depending on jurisdiction) you still have private property rights. HR218 doesn’t override that. But it does override laws about carrying into establishments that serve alcohol. There is president on it as well.
To answer the OP, Sig Sauer USA recently cleverly made a service pistol that could discharge when dropped. They’ve since fixed it.
Damn, I was hoping it was Teddy Roosevelt.
It wasn’t that many years ago the standard carry for almost all LEOs was a double action revolver. No safety, and a round in all 6 (sometime 5) chambers. No problem, as long as you don’t play with the trigger.
If it was good enough for Dirty Harry,…
I’m what you might call a firearms amateur. I’ve shot both Glocks and Sigs, and found the Glock a lot easier to use, and more accurate, because of the lighter weight and easier trigger pull. The Sig was more difficult to fire accurately because it was heavier and the effort to pull the trigger affected my aim.
No doubt a LEO is expected to be able to handle the weapon they’re issued, but I can well imagine the lighter trigger pull on a Glock making accidental discharge easier. In fact, we have this very news story to illustrate carrying a Glock makes accidental discharge easier, and also that LEOs can easily panic in a pressure situation, even one not involving terrorists, resulting in injury to innocent folks. Not very sure why this point still needs to be made.
I know an FBI agent slightly. We got to talking about her gun during a social evening. It’s a Glock, which she dislikes because it has no safety–she preferred her old Sig. I asked her if I could see it and she showed it to me–no clip, no round in the chamber, she just pulled it from her purse and handed it over. I even racked the slide because I was nervous about a potentially loaded gun in that setting.
Recognizing the Glocks is why I said “most.”
Damn auto correct corrected with the wrong word! :smack:
And you are still wrong. I’ve been a LEO for 36+ years and have owned a gun store for 30+ years. Very few mainstream brand handguns have manual safeties on them any more. The S&W 59 series were the last models to consistently have them and most departments began phasing out that model well over a decade ago. Some of the M&P models have one. But Sig, Beretta, walther, etc models usually do not. In regard to law enforcement, most agencies do not want pistols with manual safeties and those that have them usually have an SOP that the weapon be carried with a round it the chamber, the magazine topped off, and the safety off ready to fire with only a trigger pull.
Heavier guns (meaning the whole thing weighs more on a scale) are easier to shoot than lighter ones. Heavier trigger pulls are worse, but many SIGs are DA/SA so only the first shot is worse.
In other words, lighter than the first shot of a DA/SA, but heavier than subsequent shots. DA/SA are normally meant to be carried hammer down, usually with a docker and no safety, or else with a safety and every shot is the same.
The NYPD has special order Glocks that have an extra heavy trigger pull. 12 lbs vs. the stock 6ish lbs.
Lots of brands make 1911s and variants (SIG P238/938, Kimbers, etc) and those all have safeties. But you’re right that safeties aren’t fashionable for self defense purposes.
And, generally they aren’t used in law enforcement. Very few LEO’s are carrying a 1911 now days.
Looking at his dancing, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that alcohol was involved…
I find amusing that in effect OP
did suggest the case; I just didn’t see it. Calling a finger a hook works, I guess. How freaky the event was is another matter.
“DAO”?