How elite are the Gurkhas compared to SAS or Delta Force?

[Sailboat]

@ASL_v2.0

Honestly, the idea of a warrior race sounds kind of, well, racist to me. I get that the OP was referring to a selected/non-representative group of people that end up in the British Army, but when you start expanding to private security for cruise lines, it smacks of racial branding.

Are Gurkhas really better fighters, or did their racist colonial overlords just use them that way in building and maintaining their empire and the brand stuck as a sort of racist caricature, no more worthy of being endorsed by present generations than, say, the stereotype of the happy go-lucky African American minstrel, longing for that old plantation home?

I recently read some interesting discussion of the idea of “martial races” being a racist construct in, of all things, a blog post about orcs in D&D:

Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part I: A Species Built for Racial...

part 2:

Orcs, Britons, and the Martial Race Myth, Part II: They're Not Human — James...

There are more links and videos in the post going into detail about these ideas.

[ASL_v2.0]

@Shodan

As I understand the narrative, they found out that the Gurkhas were bad ass in the course of trying to become their racist colonial overlords, and having a lot of trouble doing so.

The British had a lot of practice becoming colonial overlords, and in their opinion, the Gurkhas were much harder to overcome. I don’t know if that’s a stereotype, or collective experience.

It’s rather like Afghanistan, where “empires go to die”. Read what Kipling, a rather brazen apologist for colonialism, had to say about them. Read what the Soviets had to say about them a hundred years or so later. Read what is going on now.

If you have a thousand years of experience in killing people who try to conquer you (as well as each other) you tend to develop traditions about bravery and fierceness and so forth.

Some troops are better than others, for whole bunches of reasons.

That doesn’t mean every Gurkha is an invincible killing machine. OTOH, if someone with one of those big honking knives starts acting testy, it doesn’t hurt anything to ascertain the nearest exit.

Regards,
Shodan

Right… but that all sounds suspiciously like the same sort of logic train that got a certain sportscaster (quite justifiably) fired:

@Jimmy Snyder

The black is a better athlete to begin with, because he’s been bred to be that way. Because of his high thighs and big thighs that goes up into his back. And they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs. And he’s bred to be the better athlete because this goes back all the way to the Civil War, when, during the slave trading, the big, the owner, the slave owner would, would, would, would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have uh, uh big, uh big, uh big black kid, see. That’s where it all started!

The wiki.

[Bear_Nenno]

@Gray_Ghost

Evidently, NDs are/were a wider problem in the military than I thought. See: Negligent discharges: One subject the military really doesn’t like to talk about – Foreign Policy

Paywalled.

Marines…

[Kron]

On reading Shodan’s link to the Kukri wiki page, the “legacy” stood out to me…

@Wikipedia

There is a popular proverb in Nepali as follows:

Sirupate Khukuri ma Laha chha ki chhaina?
Translation: Does your Sirupate Khukuri have enough iron?

Ummm… awesome to list that as a legacy of the Kukri, but utterly useless (to a non-Nepalese person, anyway) without any sort of attempt to shed some light on its meaning.

I’m guessing it’s meaning to be something like “Are you tough enough for this?”

[si_blakely]

@ASL_v2.0

Honestly, the idea of a warrior race sounds kind of, well, racist to me. I get that the OP was referring to a selected/non-representative group of people that end up in the British Army, but when you start expanding to private security for cruise lines, it smacks of racial branding.

Or maybe Cruise lines like employing former soldiers as security (training and discipline), and former members of the Gurkha regiment have developed a taste for travel while serving in the UK forces, and can also get paid while doing so.

Also, getting a place in the Gurkhas is a high honour in the Nepal Gurkha community, and many young men in Nepal spend their youth developing the skills that they need to try for a place in the regiment. Would it be surprising that those that fail might take those developed skills to the market and find jobs that match their skills and training?

[ASL_v2.0]

@si_blakely

Or maybe Cruise lines like employing former soldiers as security (training and discipline), and former members of the Gurkha regiment have developed a taste for travel while serving in the UK forces, and can also get paid while doing so.

Also, getting a place in the Gurkhas is a high honour in the Nepal Gurkha community, and many young men in Nepal spend their youth developing the skills that they need to try for a place in the regiment. Would it be surprising that those that fail might take those developed skills to the market and find jobs that match their skills and training?

We could both be right. I am just very suspicious of the notion of—to use a term from sailboat’s linked essays above—“martial races” as anything but a social (as opposed to innate evolutionary or genetic) construct, born out of a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. If an equal number of the Nepal Gurkha community were selected from a competitive pool to receive tutoring, a stipend, and admission to a top ranked university in the UK, might they not then eventually become know for their prowess as a “scholarly race,” found in the highest echelons of academia?

And to be clear, I’m just as opposed to the notion of a “scholarly race.”

[Baron_Greenback]

@ASL_v2.0

Honestly, the idea of a warrior race sounds kind of, well, racist to me. I get that the OP was referring to a selected/non-representative group of people that end up in the British Army, but when you start expanding to private security for cruise lines, it smacks of racial branding.

The Gurkhas themselves are not unaware of the opportunities afforded by a strong brand, I suspect. (Not helped by their army pensions being set at retires-in-Nepal levels until very recently. That’s where you’ll find the racism, I think)

[ASL_v2.0]

@Baron_Greenback

The Gurkhas themselves are not unaware of the opportunities afforded by a strong brand, I suspect. (Not helped by their army pensions being set at retires-in-Nepal levels until very recently. That’s where you’ll find the racism, I think)

Even if they are aware and complicit in their own stereotyping, that does not make it okay.

[SamuelA]

@cjackson

I guess this is one of those classic who would win questions. So would win between SAS or Delta vs the Gurkhas? Who has the hardest training?

One factor is the conditions. Do both units get their normal weapon loadouts? The soldiers with better equipment (superior body armor and optics) are going to have a substantial advantage in a “fair fight”. Which there is no such thing. Which team is on offense and which team was able to prepare the terrain and rig it with explosives?

Also the SAS or Delta - do they get the support of their host nations? Are there jets or or drones helicopter gunships available for close air support?

Gurkhas might win if this is a fight with just knives in mountainous terrain. And most of these matchups, the side taking the initiative - the one attacking without the other being aware of their plans - is going to have an enormous advantages. Unless the defenders know the attack is coming and have a fortified position with the approaches rigged with explosives. Then the defenders win in an equal numbers matchup. Unless the attackers get heavy weapons or mortars the defenders don’t get. Then the attackers win.

And so on. It only matters a little which side is the most badass as individual warriors. U.S. National guard soldiers, overweight ones who are a few years out of training and are a little rusty, operating Bradleys and Abrams would slaughter entire battalions of SAS or Gurkhas if they catch them in favorable terrain without adequate cover.

[kferr]

I’d say that the Gurkhas have won the battle of the kitchens. I live near Aldershot, “Home of the British Army” and around 6% of the population of the borough is Nepalese. A quick search on TripAdvisor shows at least 7 restaurants within 5 miles with the word “Gurkha” in the name. I’ve never heard of an SAS cafe.

[running_coach]

@kferr

I’d say that the Gurkhas have won the battle of the kitchens. I live near Aldershot, “Home of the British Army” and around 6% of the population of the borough is Nepalese. A quick search on TripAdvisor shows at least 7 restaurants within 5 miles with the word “Gurkha” in the name. I’ve never heard of an SAS cafe.

You don’t find a SAS cafe, it finds you.

[Colibri]

@ASL_v2.0

Even if they are aware and complicit in their own stereotyping, that does not make it okay.

Moderating

I think this debate goes beyond the limits of GQ. If you want to discuss this, take it to a an appropriate forum.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[Shodan]

@ASL_v2.0

Right… but that all sounds suspiciously like the same sort of logic train that got a certain sportscaster (quite justifiably) fired:

The wiki.

I am not talking about breeding or genetics or anything like that. More like historical tradition.

I am just very suspicious of the notion of—to use a term from sailboat’s linked essays above—“martial races” as anything but a social (as opposed to innate evolutionary or genetic) construct, born out of a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else.

“Social construct” is what I mean. But I doubt it is entirely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Certainly as the tradition of the fearless warrior arose, it attracted people to try to fulfill it, but the tradition came first, because the Gurkhas really were noticeably more bad-ass than other peoples, in the experience of the British as well as most other people who tried to mess with them.

Of course tribe or nation is a social construct. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not a worthwhile or informative construct, to some extent.

The nation Bulgaria, for instance, is a social construct. They are a relatively small, not very prosperous nation. But for a long period they would beat the USSR regularly in Olympic lifting, despite the fact that the USSR had nearly seven times as many registered lifters. Was that genetic? Probably not. They just had a tradition. The USA, a much larger and richer nation, does basically doodly-squat in Olympic lifting, particularly in men’s competition. Is that genetic? I doubt it - all the strong, explosive athletes in the USA play football. Because that is our tradition.

Regards,
Shodan

[Inigo_Montoya]

Put a Gurkha in a room with 42 US Marines and…remember that one time Anakin went to pay a visit to the younglings? It’d be just like that, except the Gurkha’s only regret would be there had only been 42 US Marines. Gurkha don’t throw grenades, they throw Chuck Norrises.

[ASL_v2.0]

@Colibri

Moderating

I think this debate goes beyond the limits of GQ. If you want to discuss this, take it to a an appropriate forum.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

My apologies for going off track. In the spirit of providing a factual answer, I’ll quote the British Army’s words on the subject of Gurkha Training (as distinct from Gurkha selection):

GURKHA TRAINING

Gurkha Company at ITC Catterick is part of the 2nd Infantry Training Battalion. Its mission is to mould Nepalese youths into trained soldiers who will live up to the traditions of the Brigade of Gurkhas.

Selection takes place in Nepal, but competition is fierce: only 230 trainee riflemen are recruited each year out of about 17,000 applicants.

The Combat Infantryman’s Course – Gurkha runs from January to October. It addresses a range of areas; Brigade ethos, language training, cultural training, career management and trade selection, as well as the same 26-week Combat Infantryman’s Course that the Line Infantry receive.

Gurkha training lasts for 37 weeks.

So it appears Gurkha training is 11 weeks longer than regular infantry training, but that extra time appears to be focused more on acclimation (to the UK and its culture in contrast to their native Nepal) topics than anything related to lethality.

While their physical selection process prior to training may be more demanding, the actual training they receive would seem to put them at perhaps the top of the bracket for regular infantry in terms of individual lethality (at the top because they started at a higher standard prior to selection), but does nothing to put them on par with SAS or Delta. A penchant for mutilating corpses (as referenced by previous posters) notwithstanding.

[bump]

@Shodan

I am not talking about breeding or genetics or anything like that. More like historical tradition. “Social construct” is what I mean. But I doubt it is entirely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Certainly as the tradition of the fearless warrior arose, it attracted people to try to fulfill it, but the tradition came first, because the Gurkhas really were noticeably more bad-ass than other peoples, in the experience of the British as well as most other people who tried to mess with them.

I don’t think it’s at all unusual or even notable to point out that different cultures and/or communities have different norms, mores and traditions that set the people who are part of those communities up for success in different endeavors.

It’s not a “racial” thing at all- there’s no physical/genetic component to it, but it’s entirely possible that those cultures encourage/discourage certain behaviors, attitudes and reactions in people.

I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to think that maybe the Gurkhas’ community and culture sets them up to be tougher and more aggressive than your average Briton.

But… in their case, I suspect that it’s probably as much or more the selection process than it’s some sort of inherent cultural conditioning. I mean, if you took 25,000 American(or British, or Russian, or Chinese) youths aspiring to be Rangers, and only took the top 1% of those aspirants for further rigorous training, I suspect you’d end up with a fighting force that wouldn’t give anything up to the Gurkhas or anyone else on earth for that matter.

[Dahu]

@ASL_v2.0

Honestly, the idea of a warrior race sounds kind of, well, racist to me. I get that the OP was referring to a selected/non-representative group of people that end up in the British Army, but when you start expanding to private security for cruise lines, it smacks of racial branding.

When I worked on a cruise ship the security were mostly Gurkhas, the deck officers Italian, the hotel officers British, the kitchen staff Indian, and reception bar and restaurant staff Filipino. I don’t know why, it was just the way things were.

[Colibri]

@Dahu

When I worked on a cruise ship the security were mostly Gurkhas, the deck officers Italian, the hotel officers British, the kitchen staff Indian, and reception bar and restaurant staff Filipino.

That sounds like the setup for a joke.

I don’t know why, it was just the way things were.

Often when one member of an ethnic group gets a job in a certain trade or business, he recruits friends and family. Eventually that trade becomes dominated by that ethnic group through such connections, even if there may not be any cultural tradition in that ethnic group.

[Banksiaman]

It might be useful to unpack what ‘elite’ actually means, given that its got a lot of Hollywood hero boy-fantasist overtones.

The thread has used ‘elite’ to mean a range of things from being culturally primed across generations to being a fat slob with a better gun. The most compelling is ASLv2’s post just above. If you are picking 230 from 17,000 and your process is rigorous and asking the right questions, then you are getting the cream of any target population (the top 1.3% who think they can do the job).

I have no idea what proportion of would-be applicants make it into the SAS or their equivalents. There are websites saying there is a 90% failure rate in selection training but the comparison figure should probably include arm-chair warriors to be equivalent to the Gurkha recruitment.

[Loach]

@ASL_v2.0

My apologies for going off track. In the spirit of providing a factual answer, I’ll quote the British Army’s words on the subject of Gurkha Training (as distinct from Gurkha selection):

So it appears Gurkha training is 11 weeks longer than regular infantry training, but that extra time appears to be focused more on acclimation (to the UK and its culture in contrast to their native Nepal) topics than anything related to lethality.

While their physical selection process prior to training may be more demanding, the actual training they receive would seem to put them at perhaps the top of the bracket for regular infantry in terms of individual lethality (at the top because they started at a higher standard prior to selection), but does nothing to put them on par with SAS or Delta. A penchant for mutilating corpses (as referenced by previous posters) notwithstanding.

They are elite light infantry not specialized counter terrorism forces. Think US Army Rangers not Delta.