How far are librarians supposed to go to help you?

Factual Questions
1

I was lying around thinking about libraries and librarians when I realized that I’m paying taxes that fund local public libraries with staff with advanced degrees. I also realized that 99% of the contact that I’ve had with them involves clerical and other non-advanced topics such as checking books out with the barcode scanner, telling me where the bathroom is, and explaining the login procedure for the public internet terminals. This is not stuff you need a master’s degree to explain.

In college, I can’t remember ever asking the school librarian to do something complex - they just checked books in and out. I did my own research.

I realize that librarians do do some things behind the scenes that do involve master’s degree level knowledge, such as evaluating expansions to the collection, organizing, and teaching training classes.

How far are librarians supposed to go, in theory, to help authorized patrons with their specific needs and desires? Can you walk up to a librarian, flash your library card like a badge, and ask for/demand a list of all known books published at a 4th grade reading level or less on the subject of butterflies that include at least three images of swallowtails and that were written before 1975 by a Roman Catholic without getting yourself brained by volume 5 of the Oxford English Dictionary and told to learn how to use the card catalog and do your own research you lazy fool? Are university librarians ever assigned a task list showing a list of students who are doing research and the topics and the librarian must respond with at least 2 potential sources for each?

2

I assume it depends on the library, but despite being seldom used the librarians at my university are theoretically very knowledgeable and help you with a lot. Many professors use their services and we were advised that they offer the same ones to students (though again, students rarely use them).

You can go up to one, email one, or IM one using the university library’s IM web client (only accessible to students, alumni, and staff obviously) and by giving about 30 minutes of your time telling them about your topic they can apparently come up with dozens of research articles, journals, and books relevant to the situation organized by various things such as impact factor, relevance, etc – in a MUCH better fashion than you’d get just by using the card catalogue or search engine yourself. And have all that ready for you to pick up in a day or two.

I have no idea if your average town library is willing to serve to such extreme lengths, but at least at my university they can be a lot of help (again, purportedly, I and most students never bothered to use their services myself).

3

I am going to ask my friends who work in the local public library about this. I may also make some absurd request such as you suggest as an experiment (though that is the sort of thing I would probably try to do myself first).

4

Which is why those tasks are generally not performed by librarians. :wink:

5

There’s a significant difference between a librarian and a clerk. The person checking you out is most likely a clerk and does not have an advanced degree. People with an MLS do all kinds of things: some are in a position to help patrons, others are behind the scenes working in a managerial/administrative capacity.

Academic and public libraries also have very different missions and goals.

6

Are library patrons supposed to know the difference between a librarian and a clerk now?

7

No, but if you ask a clerk a question better suited for a librarian, I am pretty sure they will know if a librarian is around.

8

I believe you tip a clerk, but tipping the librarian is slightly insulting. Kind of like the shampoo person (clerk) and the salon owner (librarian).

9

The person behind the counter at checkout is unlikely to be a librarian, i.e. have a Master’s degree in library science. The person manning the reference desk may well be. If you have a reasonable request that entails finding source materials a librarian will help; they’re not going to do your homework assignment for you.

Must be an exciting life you lead. :slight_smile:

10

Well, I’ve never DEMANDED anything from a librarian, but I have requested things, and they’ve always done their best to help me. Librarians seem to be particularly happy to help people who are just doing a bit of research out of curiosity.

In fact, when my daughter was in school and needed to use the library for research, I had to explain to the librarian that I wanted the librarian to show Lisa how to look things up, rather than looking things up for her.

I think that they reserve the throwing of the dictionary for people who do things like masturbate in a hidden aisle. Sort of like throwing a bucket of water on a couple of dogs. Do not, for your own safety, refer to the Discworld Librarian as a monkey. He’ll do a lot worse than throw a dictionary at you.

And are there really libraries that still use card catalogs, rather than computers?

11

I have a friend who runs a public library. He says that the library’s resources, the staff in particular, are very underutilized by the public.

Apparently, they’re willing to do much more than we generally ask of them. To hear him talk, they actually like to help people.

Not particularly specific, but a factual data point.

12

To be fair, he WAS thinking about sexy librarians.

13

I love libraries, and I’ve always found librarians to be very helpful. If you’re researching a school paper or trying to find the best book on any given subject, most will do their best to help.

I once heard Pulitzer Prize-winning essayist and bibliophile Connie Schultz tell the story of how, in her teens, she was regularly recommended books by a friendly local librarian who knew her tastes. Some of the books were considered a bit too adult by her mom, who stormed down to the library and asked the librarian not to recommend any more books to Connie without clearing them with Mom. The librarian politely refused.

“But I’m her mother!” Mom said.

“But I’m her librarian!” the librarian replied.

14

Librarian on duty!

They are so rare that it’s not even worth thinking about. Just about every library catalog (large or small) is computerized to some extent.

Generally, patrons who’re doing research out of curiosity are the worst. Because the research usually involves some half-remembered nugget from their childhood and they want you to track down the rest (that they may or may not correctly remember).

Or the information they’re looking for is so obscure that your average public librarian can’t find it, which leads me to…

Fuck no! This kind of information is just not cataloged in any meaningful way. And before you get all huffy, ask yourself, why would it be? A librarian is only as good as the information they have access to and this kind of nested query could only really be answered by the Library of Congress or a major research university.

Why? Well, I’m glad you asked…

First of all, “reading level” is a thorny designation that is actually assigned by the publisher. It means nothing in the grand scheme of things and is rarely broken down into something so specific as grade level. Many publishers use a five-tiered system that goes something like this: Toddler 1, Toddler 2, Toddler 3, Grade School, Teen. That’s the best I can do because that’s all I have access to.

The subject of butterflies, that’s easy. Dewey number 595.789.

Butterfly books with pictures of a specific butterfly? Much harder. Picture indexes are typically not searchable for the average librarian. But they might be at a special zoological library. That’s the best I can do because that’s all I have access to.

Written before 1975, that’s easy. The publish date is one of the most common pieces of information available to every librarian.

But then you want books by Roman Catholics only. I’m sure there must be a database out there that sorts authors by their religious affiliation. But it’s not something the average librarian is going to know about. You’d be best best off calling a research library connected to a major religious university. Notre Dame, maybe. That’s the best I can do because that’s all I have access to.

Finally, “all known books” will get you laughed out of the library. No catalog covers “all known books.” It’s just what you see pal.

So you’re looking at a minimum of three librarians at three separate institutions to answer your question. And even then, you’ll never get “all known books.”

15

Being sexy comes with the job.:wink:

That is the preferred order of command. :wink:

16

I’m clutching my pearls here.

I have an MLS and work as a Library Technician in an academic library. (That’s a para-professional position that’s one rank under the professional position of Librarian.) The librarians at my institution are considered faculty, have to become tenured the same way a professor becomes tenured, have to publish, have to teach classes, have to become subject specialists in the area they’re assigned, and have to take shifts at the reference desk. I do some reference as part of my job and also maintain my department’s records in the catalog – my job description does not require an MLS, but I’m glad I have it.

If you personally, or anybody, only use librarians and library staff to ask directions to the bathroom or how to use the printers, that has no bearing on the requirements or duties of the profession.

Ideally, reference librarians should be able to find the answer – or know where to look to find the answer, or whether or not there even is an answer – to any question you could dream up. They have to know what resources are out there, and how trustworthy those resources are (this is huge – why else would there be such a stink about people using Wikipedia as a resource?). They have to understand how to navigate these resources, what the strengths/weaknesses of each one are, what changes or developments have occurred, what other resources exist that this particular library doesn’t have, etc.

Librarians here work closely with the professors in their subject areas and teach classes to their students on navigating the resources in the subjects (e.g., if you’re a librarian responsible for History, you teach classes on what History resources [print, database, etc] the library offers, etc.). Their professors will tell the librarians about upcoming research projects the students are assigned so that the librarians can be prepared to help the students when they come into the library looking for materials.

The librarians are also responsible for collection development in their subject area. If you’re responsible for History, you need to keep abreast of the field and be aware of all the great and terrible books (materials, etc.) that are coming out in the field and determine if the library should own them. You should go to the shelves and weed out all the terrible and obsolete materials that are clogging the collection. How do you determine what is great and what is terrible? You’d better really know your subject area, shouldn’t you?

I work in the Government Documents department, and typically people come to us for statistics for their research – e.g., how many people with a physical disability under the age of 50 live in X township? We need to know what resources are available that would get you your answer, and most likely, walk you through the steps of finding it. Each resource behaves differently (i.e., how you build a search query in one database may not be the same in the next), and you have to be familiar with how each one works. You have to know what’s available in print vs. online. Did you know that a lot of the files in the US Census Bureau’s database are corrupt? If you need to find census data on Florida in the 1970s, for example, you can’t use the online files. Now what? (Hint: Go to your nearest regional government document depository and see if they have the data in print.)

Cataloging librarians (which I went to grad school to become) have to understand the principles of information organization, the principles behind whatever classification system their library uses, how to assign a call number to any material in the world (this is more complicated than you would think, particularly building Dewey Decimal numbers), how to use whatever subject heading thesaurus is employed at your library, how to keep your catalog records consistent, relevant, and useful…basically, how to connect your patrons to the materials in your library. People overlook the skill that goes into cataloging, even within the library science field. My job right now is to clean up 25+ years of shitty cataloging in my department that has rendered huge chunks of our collection inaccessible. What’s the point of having materials if patrons have no way of knowing what we have and how to get them?

17

I’m just gonna assume this thread isn’t going to devolve into a Libertarian screed. No offense, robert_columbia:, but we’ve had these sorts of threads before – Libertarians can’t really make the argument that there taxes shouldn’t fund public education, given that’s closely associated with basic civilization, but they do start threads in Great Debates, wondering why their tax money goes to support a large marble edifice, mostly for the homeless to sleep in.

Like the O.P. I’ve known the Public Library as a self-serve facility, having been taught the Dewey Decimal system, and being capable of doing a subject search myself, even by these newfangled computers. However, some people need more support, and a librarian will do it for you.

I was once quietly reading, and an old lady came to the desk and asked, “WHAT MOVIES ARE SHOWING TODAY” and “AT WHAT TIME”. (That ALL CAPS does, in fact, visually match for you the volume level she wanted to speak at.) The librarian was able to softly inform her of the information she needed. Another time, and elderly gentleman came and asked, “DO YOU SELL ANY BOOKS ON COINS” “COINS” “THOSE TYPE OF BOOKS” “DO YOU SELL ANY” I couldn’t hear the librarians part of the dialog. But he did sort of explain, how a lending public library works, and use the computer to address his needs. “YOU SEE I HAVE THESE COINS AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY"RE WORTH” “BECAUSE SOMEBODY SAID I SHOULD CHECK THEIR VALUE” And the librarian continued to work with him in this vein. When I was a kid, and I was browsing the stacks, the librarian would often come over to try to help. I didn’t need searching help, but I could always use a grownup to help me reach the top of the stack, so that’s cool, too.

One time, I hear a loud, “IS THIS THE THIRD FLOOR!” And it was obviously a college age man, and I was thinking “Geez guy, what button did you press?”

“I SAID IS THIS THE THIRD FLOOR”
quiet comment by librarian
“I DON’T GIVE A FUCK, GO AHEAD AND CALL SECURITY”
What do you need?
“I NEED GRAY ANATOMY AND SOMEONE SAID IT WAS ON THE THIRD FLOOR AND wha?” “I JUST CAME FROM THE SECOND FLOOR, and THEY SAID IT WAS ON THE THIRD FLOOR”

Anyway, she eventually got him to his book, and presumably, all was as well with his would as it could have productively been.

Granted, my anecdotes very much match the O.P.'s point, that these sorts of tasks are just as well met with a slightly trained clerk as a librarian. But yes, there are people who need information, and, because they’re kids, or very old, or not formally educated, or perhaps English is their second language, or they’re just plain stubborn jerks, who do need help in getting a book.

I didn’t even tell you the story about the time the Research desk was fielding the phone call request for information, “OKAY, It says here you can … yes, get a pen and paper … OK, you’ll beat 3 eggs… I SAID, YOU WILL BEAT 3 EGGS, YES, 3 … EGGS … BEAT THEM” Yes, most adults have the ability to acquire knowldge from their peers in conversation, or can browse the web themselves, but sometimes, the only place people are accustomed to go is their public library.

18

Amen to that. When I was at library school cataloguing was one of the major subjects we studied and now it’s not even taught anymore as there usually already is a catalogue record to download or link to. I just wonder who people think has made it.

There is someone on Facebook who calls herself Bibliotekarier i allmänhet (Librarians in general). As she only writes about reference work I wonder if we, who have devoted our lives to make literature accessible for her and her colleagues, can call ourselves Librarians in particular. :slight_smile:

That sounds like a fun job not far from what I am doing myself.

19

Thanks for all the interesting responses. It’s very interesting that others feel that librarians are underutilized by patrons. I would suppose that a big percentage of those who underutilize librarians basically have no idea what a librarian’s job description really is. Yes, I knew that my OP’s scenario was a little excessive, but I was/am genuinely curious where the limit really is. It’s clearly more than “Where are the books on Geography?”, but it’s less than my ridiculous Catholic butterfly books situation. Anyone have anecdotes about specific things they thought they couldn’t get help with but did?

One thing I’ve heard is that librarians that specialize in childrens’ books often have an encyclopedic knowledge of them and you can go up to them and describe some half-remembered book you think you read in 5th grade but forgot the title to and you can then relive the experience of reading it. E.g.:

Patron: “There was this book in fifth grade that I remember I really liked. It involved a girl who lived by a lake and had problems with bullies at school and she eventually went with her grandparents on a tour of Europe and they bought her this really cute pink dress in a shop in France or Switzerland or something and then she came back and got a boyfriend and there was something about a poor grade in History.”

Librarian: “That sounds like ‘Joanne Derkins and the Trip of a Lifetime’ by E. R. Nathan. It’s book 3 of the ‘Joanne Derkins’ series. The first book is ‘Joanne Derkins Gets Sent to Detention’. Follow me, I think we have them all.”

And yes, I know that card catalogs are sort or obsolete. That’s what I learned to use as a wee one and I still consider the online system to be an “online card catalog”.

20

Cataloging is still taught at almost all library schools and is a requirement at many of them.

This is true for a lot of specialized librarians. My area of expertise is film and TV, and people come in all the time with mangled plots or a general year and I can come up with it a good percent of the time. Librarians are awesome that way.