Don’t need answers fast.
I know YMMV according to state but I was wondering things like does the Castle Doctrine extend to your car, does stand your ground apply, what about the fact that if the road rager comes up to the driver’s side your effectively trapped, etc. And of course I’ll assume you have called 911 but the road rager can get to you before the LEOs show up…
So a road rager gets out of their car and walks aggressively up to your car.
Can you assume they mean to do you harm? (legally speaking)
Do the rules of engagement change when they start hitting your window, viz you can assume they are trying to break your window to physically attack you or do they actually have to break your window or open your door for that?
At what point would deadly force be allowed as self defense? Would you have to see a weapon? I ask this because in this day and age I’m shocked there are not more people that shoot through the window in dealing with road ragers. At what point is that NOT an overreaction?
If they actually commit an act of violence or make a threat that would cause you to fear for your safety. Of course a judge and/or jury may need to be convinced that you were reasonably fearful. It’s no different than any other threat or actual violence against you.
I’m not going to weigh in on any “Castle Doctrine” or “rules of engagement” questions (highly dependent upon both state law and jury perception, as well as your skin color and socioeconomic status) but in general if you are inside an operable vehicle and aren’t blocked both in front and behind, you are both capable of removing yourself from the confrontation and protected against immediate injury unless the ‘road rager’ in question is brandishing a firearm, which is always the smart move. Even if you are ‘in the right’ legally, a confrontation where you discharge a firearm or injure someone even in legitimate self-defense will almost certainly cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and a priceless amount of anxiety.
From a practical manner, shooting a firearm from within a vehicle is not as easy as many people have been led to believe from movies and television. For one, you do not want the muzzle to cover you or anyone else in the car, or do you want the muzzle blast cutting across someone’s face, potentially blinding or scarring them but this is difficult in the confined space of a vehicle. Second, the blast of even a low power firearm is literally deafening within an enclosed vehicle, so budget for hearing aids if you plan to do this. Third, a bullet passing through a window will deform and tumble off track; for tempered side glass it will likely shatter and fall after the first shot but laminated windshield glass will remain mostly intact. Of course, once you’d shot through the glass it will need to be replaced (especially windshield because you’ll end up with a big cloud right in the driver’s view) which anyone who has had to do this in the past few years can attest has become a very expensive replacement. All told, you are far better off driving off and reporting the incident rather than engaging with someone ‘enraged’ over some minor infraction.
I kind of figured that. I was wondering technicalities like if your car is the extension of your home re: 4th amendment is that also true for the Castle Doctrine, is reasonableness different when in a confined space like a car, do they need to break my window for my fear to be reasonable, etc.
I’ve never heard of the Castle Doctrine extending to a car. Might be interesting to see how that would be handled for someone living in their car, RV, or even a trucker in his overnight cab.
Not exactly the same, but here a driver was trying to cross a road and comic-con attendees on a “zombie walk” blocked the road for 10 minutes (no parade license) before he drove through them.
Apparently he was yelling at them and they did not get out of the way. When they started jumping on his car and trying to open the doors, he drove through the crowd. He stopped when he saw a policeman several blocks away - so legitimately fearful for the lives of himself and his family. (And incidentally, all deaf so whatever the crowd was yelling at his was not clear but appeared threatening to him…)
It should be understood that “Castle Doctrine” is a legal theory of justifiable use of force regarding a limited duty to retreat, but it is not a specific statute or law. (Well, Florida does have a “Protect Your Castle” law, which sounds like something Disney should be using to push back on Ron DeSantis, but so far as there are provisions to ensconce the doctrine for permissive home defense in law, these are just part of established statutes on self-defense.) If you walk into an arraignment insisting on dismissal because of “castle doctrine”, don’t expect much tolerance on the part of a judge. Florida and certain other states have a “Stand Your Ground” law (sometimes referred to as “No Retreat, No Surrender” because nothing says sound legal doctrine like a kickboxing film) which is legally distinct from “Castle Doctrine” insofar as it applies to a threat regardless of whether you are able to retreat; in essence, if you perceive that someone has threatened you, you may respond in kind without obligation to retreat.
If you really have an interest in the topic, you should talk to a criminal defense attorney in the jurisdiction in question, and also ask them to refer to case studies of actual application, as well as the civil liability faced by people invoking it even if they were successful in dodging penal sanctions.
Many, many years ago when I moved to New Mexico, I believe I remember them covering this on the out of state driver orientation. At that time it did extend to your car,
In NJ you may use reasonable force to defend yourself from unlawful force being used against you. You may not use deadly force unless a) you have a reasonable fear that you are under imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm and b) that escape in complete safety is not possible. You must know that said escape is an option before you could be accused of not using it. . This pertains to outside your dwelling, which is what road rage would be.
From a defensive standpoint, if a rager starts walking towards your car you should either lock it up and stay protected, or get out immediately if you think you need to. Do not wait for the asshole to walk up to your car before you attempt to get out. You are incredibly vulnerable at that point.
The best thing to do always is de-escalate wherever you can. Every physical encounter is a major risk of bad things happening.
The question is not about what should I do, but rather what can I do legally. For example, RR comes up to my car holding a gun. Can I shoot first legally? Can I hit him with my car during my getaway if I choose to escape? That sort of thing.
I’m gonna say no. Shooting or running over someone is not good. Not legal. You may win the court case. But you will face one. Spend big bucks on attorneys retainers. Lose months of time. And possibly be ridiculed in your community.
I would say it’s a bad idea all around. When you could just drive away. Go home to your nice life.
There was a well-publicized case a decade ago where a driver panicked and drove through a motorcycle gang that had surrounded his car, running over three motorcycles and one rider:
My states does. As Stranger explained it’s not called “Castle Doctrin” in and of itself but the self defense statute was amended to include the castle doctrin therum and it includes ones vehicle.
First off, never say never. There can be a lot of scenarios involving road rage incidents. By saying never to a possible option in some scenarios creates a false dichotomy that could cost someone their life.
I’ve responded to quite a few road rage complaints. You’d be surprised at how many victims are completely oblivious to the fact that someone is targeting them. Another vehicle brake checking them, speeding around them then behind them, and so on. They don’t calculate that it’s them that has done something to make the other driver hyper-pissed off.
One thing that happens a lot is the victim will pull into a grocery store or Walmart and park in the lot, unaware that a rager has followed them into the lot or that there is anything wrong. The rager will park behind them pinning their car in, making “just drive away” impossible. The rager will get out and start pounding on the victims hood and roof while screaming and spouting profanities. The victim is many times taken by surprise. Has no idea why this is happening. In that case somene might be able to articulate that they were trapped and felt in danger of death or great bodily harm. Car windows are easily broken, especially by someone in a rage.
Then why are you spouting such things? You could say that about many scenarios involving using lethal force. Sometimes it’s the only option, not just in road rage incidents. I’m an advocate of driving away if you can.
There are a zillion scenarios. There are also a lot of options to take. To say never to one is absurd. That could one day be the only option there is to save yourself, gawd forbid.
Never say never.
And nobody is blaming the victim. Road rage incidents involve people who lose their shit over every little slight. Sometimes it’s mutual and the “victim” was also agressive. But a lot of the people I’ve interviewed can’t understand why the other driver got so pissed off. The infraction seemed so slight.
If you shoot someone, no matter how clean a shoot, how justified, you’re never going to get your gun back. At least not in my neck of the woods.
Even if the person you shoot doesn’t die, in fact, especially if the person doesn’t die, your weapon is going to sit in an evidence locker forever and a day. Even if you’re not charged with anything. You’re never getting it back. Even if you’re a LEO. The amount of money it will cost in legal fees will far, far surpass whatever that gun was worth. And you still won’t get it back. I know quite a few cops that have been in shootings and they never, ever got their gun back. Ever. Some of us are allowed to carry our personally owned weapons. Have to keep in mind that if we ever have to use it we aren’t getting it back.
An asshole screaming at me for a traffic slight will get no reaction from me. If he wants to go stupid on me and beat me down he’ll just have to do it. I’m not gonna shoot him. Never.
Now…if a rapist, kidnapper or someone pulls a gun on me, they will get a different reaction.
My problem is if I’ll know the difference. If like you say people are often unaware they cut someone off or did something stupid in traffic.
I’m beginning to think living in the world is getting too hard.