How far should the US take this UN "Quid Pro Quo"?

The US wanted to liberate Iraq and remove Saddam’s despotic regime and France, Germany, Russia and China all said “Not under any circumstances” so we went ahead and did it anyway with Britains help. France, Germany, Russia and China all said “Thats illegal, Immoral and unjustified”. So a few weeks into this we find French missiles, Russian jammers, and a chinese silkworm and France, Germany, Russia and China “How that get there??”

NOW, we have the Iraqis dancing in the streets, having shoe flinging parties at any likeness of Saddam they can find (and theres a LOT to find), we’re finding chemical stores, regime atrocities, stories of oppression, murder, crimes against their own people so now France, Germany, Russia and China says, “The UN must reconstruct Iraq not the US…”

I’m pretty much betting that the USA will say “Not under any circumstances” in their best french accent, but everyone knows the lil buggers will be insistent on this. How far should the US go to deny the UN any role in reconstruction apart from advisory and humanitarian duties? Will it be all the way to the point where the US declares the UN irrelevant and quits altogether or will the US announce that they will just keep vetoing any resolution put forth regarding any UN reconstruction capacity?

I really doubt that the U.S. will refuse to let the UN take part in the reconstruction. While we certainly circumvented their objections over the war (which I think is a good thing), we tend to look toward diplomatic niceties in the same way every other nation does. We won’t burn that bridge entirely.

However, I think that we should refuse to allow Russian, German, French, Chinese, and other non-supportive nations to be any part of the effort, or at a minimum those which would entail a profit being made by those nations or their respective companies. I would truly love to hear Powell addressing the Security Council with words to the effect of, “We are the liberating/occupying power in Iraq and together with our British friends and other allies we will rebuild this nation. Those of you who were too scared or too deep in bed with Saddam can grovel at our feet in the hopes of getting even a crumb from the reconstruction table.” Of course, that will never happen.

France could have acted as a sovereign nation and voted with their ideology - the conscience of their nation. Fine.

The position Chirac stated is and will be regarded as vindictive and an unfair vote. Thus, I reckon France’s Security Council vote will be turned into a EU vote.

I doubt the UN will be kept out completely. I think it is more likely that they will take over the humanitarian part while the US and the UK handle the transistion from military to Iraqi civilian government.

I think the US have already realised the importance of a UN sanctioned government, even it if they might enjoy watching the French squirm for a bit.

If they pushed the French and their buddies too far, Chirac might just decide not to recognise the legitimacy of a US appointed Iraqi government.

Well, if we don’t let France in there will be cries from the anti-war crowd that we did it for profit. Note that the contracts to put out the oil fires have already been criticized and that contract was paid for by our tax money.

[ul]:mad: [sup]No matter, I say “Let them eat cake!”[/sup][/ul]

So let’s say France doesn’t recognize the new government. What’s the big deal?

Marc

Marc: I’m with you on the France deal. (I’ll ignore your Frenchly spelled name for the time being…)

We’ll give the UN some publicly sounding high minded role, but hands off the gov’t. You had your chance, and we’re fine w/o your help on that, thank-you.

I’m sure Chirac and Putin wish this were just some glorified game of Survivor and that the US could be voted off the island. Too bad, pals.

**

I’m not really trying to be all down on France. I’m just thinking of how the United States refused to recognize the communist government of China for all those years. Not that it changed who was governing China.

**

I think there should be various UN organizations involved in Iraq after the war is over. I think their role should be largely limited to observation and ensuring that human rights are protected.

Marc

X-slayer:

I’m a bit of a newbie here, but I think the “Great Debates” are meant for proposing “Debates”.
You are only trying to express your already very adopted position and personal feelings about an issue.

Wow, you are a newbie! :smiley: This isn’t exactly a new thing here. Personally I find it less annoying then when someone starts an OP with “I’m not going to give you my opinion until I hear what other have to say.”

Marc

First, let me observe that should, and perhaps I am engaging in sheer optimism here, we be looking to medium and long term results, then petty playground sandbox politics is not a particularly productive path to take.

A few sociological observations first, for those who have missed my thread.

First, the celebrating and looting, etc., with the end of the regime is not seen in this region as “Iraqis,” an undifferentiated group, but by the social layers that people here know exist. Shiite vs Sunni is also a class difference. Many of those being looted, or in the case of government offices, having their offices looted are Sunni, the majority in fact. The celebrators-looters are without doubt largely Shiite, for that is the sociological reality of the regime, the Shiite majority was shut out. Have care not to dupe yourself into thinking things are simple. As I argued in my thread, it is now that the real danger starts, with a head that will come up in I would estimate 6 months to a year.

If one follows either my thread or the many links therein, one clear picture emerges, whatever sort of ideological pimpery may claim otherwise: Many Iraqis wanted to be rid of Sadaam, few wanted an invasion and none, excluding perhaps the exiles who may need protection if installed as pro-consuls, want the Americans to rule or otherwise revamp their country in an American image. Arab nationalism, emerging and fragile Iraqi nationalism together.

The threat here is Beirut, 1980s. Roula Khalaf in the Financial Times has it on the money. There will be little patience on the Iraqi side for a second colonial experience, and many, many hidden agendas, jockeying for power and influence. And in a country awash in arms.

Second, the entire operation has had little to no international legitimacy. Celebrating Iraqis is helpful but not the entire game, for all that anyone who looks closely knows there is a clear socio-economic and ethnic divide to take into account (as well as it being important to recall the habits of a dictatorship do not disappear overnight, one day chanting for Sadaam, the next USA, but where the real feelings lie? With neither in the end, for the moment). Pre-emptive attack on a fairly prostrate country by the worlds most powerful nation generates fears and resentments, and not just in dictatorships. These are not merely trivial jealousies but also reactions to a rising perception of threat coming from a United States that many perceive as not being willing to abide by the same rules it wishes to impose on others. Certainly the Wolfowitz crowd make arguments that fit this precisely. This implies lack of trust, lack of trust implies impaired cooperation in other fields. Impaired cooperation implies rising opportunity costs to achieve policy goals, and indeed perhaps excludes certain win-win kinds of multinational cooperation.

These are important problems, less evident perhaps to the simplistic one off analysis, but they became very evident when one looks at the failure of US diplomacy, truly unprecedented given the circumstances, in the past year. Very clearly, the Blair Government understands this and is pressuring, publicly and privately, to get Iraqi policy back on a multilateral track – and short-circuit the ‘spoils of victory’ mentality I see here. Just as obviously, a failure in this regard will be serious political blow to Blair having staked his reputation on these items.

Very clearly then, spreading the responsibility is akin to spreading the risks. The profits to be had from Iraq, while perhaps important for smaller to medium sized companies, are not that great in the end. Iraq may end up rich, but not overnight. Serious money will have to be invested to repair damage, heal wounds, buy loyalties, patch over rivalries and spread enough good will to help allow the first seeds of civil society to take root. None of this will be easy either. Should the Bush team actually be thinking as prudent strategists, they should be thinking of spreading the risk for what is now the real challenge: defeating a second rate army crippled by ten years of sanctions was trivial – although a very decent job was apparently done of doing so and largely minimizing Iraqi civilian casualties. For all that I know some, which makes it hard to step back and be analytical, for me personally.

What purpose then, excluding the French and the Germans and the Russians? To show political immaturity and childish peevishness? To engage in pointless self-indulgence? What rational policy goals are served? Certainly in the case of private companies and participation in rebuilding Iraq, excluding private companies such as TotalFinaElf on the basis of their ‘nationality’ is not only ludicrously childish but also sends a number of bad policy signals.

First, it undermines the credibility of the argument this is not a colonial game. It is hard to overestimate the danger of this, for both Iraqi and pan-Arab and Pan-Islamic opinion are inclined – with the good reason of historical examples – to see this as a colonialist power play to seize the Iraqi market for the US. I personally find this to be a silly argument on a rational basis (as much as I find to be absurd and incoherent, even hypocritical, the frequent pimping of the claims that France et al aligned themselves with Iraq for commercial reasons, based on trivial private contracts and debt – which is more likely to be repaid now than before). However as noted there are rational historical, if not factually supported, reasons for the developing world to see things in this manner.

Second, it rather undermines what should be a policy of promoting adherence to commercially based free market contracting. American insertion of American preferences for no better reason than ideology and childish peevishness into the contracting processes does nothing more than set a bad example in a neighborhood already replete with bad examples and poor corporate and other governance. Should we actually wish to succeed in the stated aim of helping the Iraqis build a viable civil society with viable economics, then policies had best be based on a clear-sighted vision of medium term goals and results, not near term inanities about who was ‘against’ us.

I am likely going to be a part of financing certain aspects of this, and I certainly do not see anything good in the medium and even near term from adopting a “US” first program in Iraq, for the examples that will be set, and for the already stunning challenges one will find in operating in this environment. I speak to this as an on the ground operator, and I may add since we have American capital, I may be speaking against narrow self-interest but for a larger overall pie in the end.

Finally, on the corporate front, the spreading of participation also means the spreading of potential risk, especially blame, when things go wrong. While it may be superficially attractive to own the whole pie, this also means owning all of the blame, or all of the risk. Not a very good idea, in my opinion, and I know this region – this is not Kansas. Already the US by arrogating to itself the right to change this regime has bitten off a large portion of risk for success and failure in Iraq in the next 5-10 years. Whatever happens in the next half-to full decade here will be pinned on the US, for better or worse. While I am sure our navel gazers here will thoughtlessly throw up their shoulders in a so-what shrug, if one wants positive results from the policy, one has to follow it through. Given the challenges I have outlined elsewhere, I do not believe it prudent, for no particularly compelling long-term policy reasons, to exclude portions of the private sector for what should be ephemeral political tiffs.

As to the political side, while I can see reasons not to welcome French political meddling on one level, it strikes me once more from experience that getting potential stake holders and game spoilers in one the game is the best way to minimize interference. Already this process begins with little to no regional or international legitimacy. That needs to be changed to manage the risk, and to help increase the somewhat long odds for success.

For example, lack of French and German, and other European recognition for the Government would, as in the case of the Security Council vote, give political cover and critical mass for developing world countries, including those in the region not to recognize the government. One disaster scenario would be to end up with a result approaching the Turkish Republic of Cyprus, a country only recognized by Turkey – obviously less extreme in this case, but when the weight of international legitimacy is not there, your operating costs rise dramatically. No WB access, no IMF – difficulty in shaking the colonial label, with attendant loss of legitimacy internally if this is a long-term problem.

I will not go on to delve into this further; I believe this is sufficient to show that the comments to date reflect at best an impoverished understanding of the requirements for moving forward successfully, and the myriad attendant dangers. I am personally deeply concerned with these issues for the very reason noted above, it has non-theoretical impacts on me. However, beyond that, I believe the analysis is clear – short sightedness got the US into the position where there was a Sadaam with the moderate regional threat capacity that he had – cold war support for the Baath, cold war support for his war with Iran, etc. More short-termism, however superficially appealing on some self-indulging emotional level, will simply create medium to long term problems.

I should say in closing I continue to be amused by the bizarre statements about how “France’s vote” “will be seen” and that somehow France will lose its position in the UN and even lose cred. in the EU. Really quite the contrary, the inverse indeed. Certainly in responsible levels, French opposition expressed the widely held belief that someone had to say no to the Bush Administration’s transparently fabricated case for toppling someone they did not like when they wanted to and fuck the views of others. That this did not stop the war, I would say is considered perhaps less important than, as in the case of the failure of getting the rest of the Security Council on board despite pressure etc,

X~Slayer(ALE),
Good question, and it has stirred debate (as you intended). My response (below) really applies to all posters.

IMHO, the “coalition” (aka the Brit govt and the American govt) will ultimately “let” (can we really stop them?) the UN play a key role. A few reasons:
(1)$$$; as the smoke starts to clear, it will take an enormous amount of $$$ to rebuild Iraq, and the UN can help with that.
(2)the UN will insist on a role, and Bush will not want to be seen as an isolationist.
(3)Bush has to worry about being re-elected, so raising taxes to pay for this “operation” would not be in his best interest.
(4)the coalition does not want to offend long-time allies.
(5)the coalition does not want to offend Russia and China.
(6)our administration does not want to offend the member-nations of the UN.

For this administration, as for most previous administrations, the goal is re-election. Thus I believe #1-3 (above) will ring the dinner bell.

CAVEATS:
(1)Don’t take it for granted that Bush will be swept into the Oval Office in 2004. This “operation” is far, far from over.
(2)The word “offend” (above) isn’t exactly what I wanted to say, but I can’t think of a better word.

I add for further consideration:
Iraq in the red
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2927719.stm

The issue of sovereign debt, rebuilding, and funding.

Non-trivial issues.

Correction:

Only Germany declared that it will not go to war “under any circumstances”. In fact, Chancellor Gerhard Schröder was criticized by the opposition for that. They argued that taking such an extreme stance is sending a message to Saddam Hussein that he can get away with anything.

France, China and Russia did not take that extreme stance. They wanted the weapons inspections to continue and would have supported a war, if Bush had bothered to present real evidence for Iraq’s WoMD programs. Bush on the other hand didn’t want to do that as he apparently wanted to go to war no matter what.

Really, X, it’s just been a couple of months, you can’t have forgotten already :wink:

If Bush wants to use his last chance to dispel the world wide worry that he did this for economical and political reasons alone, he should make sure the USA plays a role as member of the international community and not as occupying force. That would mean letting the UN handle the reconstruction.

However, this wouldn’t fit in with his psy-profile, so I am pretty sure he’ll fumble the ball yet again :wink:

IMHO, Bush really is a simpleton.

For the PNAC, war with Iraq was an end in itself. It wasn’t the well thought out means to some (hidden) benefit.

War with Iraq was was sold to various people and groups using different justifications.

To corporate America:

  • securing cheap oil (probably won’t pan out because of the huge cost of the war that wasn’t calculated in advance, and the international backlash that would result)

To the American people:

  • getting rid of the WOMD (where are they?)

In reprise to the American people:

  • freeing innocent Iraqi civilians from oppression (good result, but killed a lot of those same innocent Iraqi civilians, and cost a shit load of money that may have been better spent elsewhere)

Bzzt: I am unaware in the corporate circles that I travel in of anyone who was ‘sold’ on this account.

Some narrow interests were certainly sold on contracts, but those are small.

Oil industry people might be counting on various new opps to move into Iraq, although given nationalism of the past 30 years, I do not think de-nationalizing the oil reserves is in the cards.

Many more folks would like to see an end of uncertainty.

Some will be found, it is certain Sadaam had some. It is as certain they were theater weapons and not strategic ones. The overselling of this ‘threat’ to the US, laughable as it is, was on the al-Qaeda/terror connexion, based on stale ties and trumped up history.

What, you’ve never seen stuff like this (it’s a subscription account, I don’t think I can link to it):

While I have never personally been sold on the war by GWB, the guy I quoted from Prudential has.

Optihut,

If France, Germany, and China had really taken a hard stance on the inspection(s) of WMD, war could have been avoided. They may have “supported” inpections. However, they did not apply enough pressure on Iraq. The inspections, as it turned out, were a joke.

Collounsbury,

I have been struggling a bit with developing my opinions on how the next phase should be carried out. I found your post to be very informative on why the U.S. should involve the U.N. and felt it sharpened my own dulled ideas. I do have a question however, as your post seems to be exclusively addressed towards what position(s) the U.S. should take.

What steps, or concessions, do you believe that the France-German-Russian leadership should take to obtain U.N. involvement? I’m seeing this in the very juvenile sense that both sides are pissed at each other and are diplomatically “thumbing their noses” at each other. I agree the U.S. needs to back down for many of the reasons you outlined, but I’m seeing no discourse on why/how France-Germany-Russia should do the same. Surely, they cannot expect to maintain their own form of stubbornness in their positions and be welcomed back to the table?

Thanks,

MeanJoe