It’s not self defense without an “imminent use of unlawful force”. Zimmerman asking Martin what he was doing does not qualify as an “imminent use of unlawful force”.
The 911 recordings do add a little light, though. And not favorably for Zimmerman.
Yes, the gun was pointed at Martin, do you doubt it? Do you also *not *doubt Zimmerman’s physical conditioning?
What’s your theory as to why Martin suddenly jumped him for no apparent reason? (This oughta be good, too …)
Why would Trayvon have any reason to think that this situation could be handled peacefully? He was followed by a man with a gun, then accosted and forced to explain his presence. What the fuck is that, by the way? Why does Zimmerman have this God-given right to wander the streets of Florida, demanding that passerbys (well, black passerbys) explain their business?
I sincerely hope that you never experience a situation like Trayvon Martin did. Luckily for you, your race ensures that you probably won’t, at least not in the United States. But in the years leading up to 2012 African Americans were the victims of over 4,000 violent hate crimes in the United States. So if Trayvon Martin doesn’t share your certainty that the armed stalker coming after him isn’t a threat, forgive me if I agree with him.
I can assure you that you can stop someone on the street and demand to know what they are doing in a very threatening way. It’s all about tone of voice and body language. For example, if you walked through the streets of downtown Chicago when an armed black man stopped you and demanded to know what you were doing there, there would be certain clues you could use to determine that he is asking this question because he doesn’t believe your kind belongs in this place, and implying the threat of violence if you don’t leave.
For an example of how asking someone, “what are you doing here?” can have racist undertones, check out this link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/29/she-was-white-hot-racist-video-now-shes-viral-unemployed/?utm_term=.a889d85a2f41
Obviously that woman wasn’t particularly threatening. I would imagine an armed male of George Zimmerman’s stature would be quite a bit scarier.
If you have never faced this sort of treatment because of your ethnicity, I’m very happy for you. As someone who has, I can assure you that it would not be very hard at all for George Zimmerman to say “What are you doing here?” while communicating the message, “You came to the wrong neighborhood, darkie”.
What the hell is your theory? That Martin, a 17 year old boy with no criminal record or history of violence, noticed that Zimmerman was stalking him and decided to ambush him, then attacked him for no reason and started bashing his head against the ground? Isn’t it much more likely that Zimmerman (who has a history of pulling this sort of vigilante crap and actually got in legal trouble for it when he did it again AFTER the Trayvon Martin thing died down) who had been stalking this kid actually did cause Trayvon Martin to fear for his life, leading him to defend himself?
Again, what the hell is your theory? That Martin had been hiding his savage bloodlust for 17 years, or perhaps the hormones of puberty just made him violent, and that he attacked and beat Zimmerman for no reason, despite Zimmerman being no threat to him?
So why do you think Martin would do all of this? What’s his motive? Because we have a motive for Zimmerman: he’s got a hardon for Vigilante justice, as we can see by his actions both before and after the shooting. There’s a very simple narrative (George “Batman” Zimmerman scared the ever-living crap out of a black kid by following him around, when the kid realized he had a gun he tried to defended himself and was killed) that explains literally everything about this case and is consistent with all the facts we know. What’s your narrative?
See above.
Sigh… I’m beginning to suspect that you’re right. I should have known better, but I was hoping against it.
You sure that the difference isn’t that one of them was old and white while the other was young and black?
When someone follows you around with a gun, that’s an implicit threat. Trayvon defended himself against that threat.
Right? What the hell is supposed to be his motive? It’s like they think that the fact that he’s young and he’s black is enough to explain any violent actions by him, so they don’t even bother ascribing any motivation to this.
Zimmerman scared the shit out of Trayvon when he was following him around before. When Zimmerman started questioning Trayvon, he either pulled out the gun, or Martin saw its bulge or otherwise realized how big of a threat he was in. Realizing that he could not escape an armed assailant who could shoot him in the back if he ran, Martin defended himself as best he could (ironically enough, in accordance with Florida’s Stand Your Ground laws, he would be allowed to use deadly force to defend himself here). Unfortunately, Zimmerman reached his gun and murdered Martin despite his best efforts to defend himself.
What’s your theory? That Martin was saving the skittles for a snack, but what he REALLY hungered for was Zimmerman’s blood, so he circled back and hunted him down?
I don’t know why he decided to get violent with Zimmerman. It was an extremely foolish decision, but foolish decisions seem to be something of a pattern for Martin:
GASP! You’re telling me that Trayvon Martin smoked m… mar… MARIJUANA?! WHAT?! and he did gra-- graFITI?! man, good thing Zimmerman took him out, that guy was a menace to society.
No, wait. Those are non-violent offences, the kind a stupid kid might do. Do you have any evidence of VIOLENT behavior?
We have no evidence that the gun was pointed at Martin at the moment Martin initiated his attack on Zimmerman. Personally, I find the theory laughably implausible, so yes I doubt it.
Then you need to consider the circumstantial evidence, Dee Dee’s testimony (she was on the phone with Martin at the time), the transcript of the call to the NEN operator, and things like that. For instance, the mark on Martin’s fist consistent with having punched someone, and Zimmerman’s broken nose and blackened eyes. And the eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, and the grass stains and moisture on Martin’s knees and the back of Zimmerman’s jacket.
You shouldn’t. You should look at the evidence, including statements made by Zimmerman before the shooting.
The fact that, according to Dee Dee’s testimony, he was out of sight of Zimmerman, right by his father’s house, and could have peacefully handled it by walking in the door. Instead, Martin handled it by going back, confronting Zimmerman, and attacking him, breaking his nose, blackening his eyes, and bashing his head on the ground.
Regards,
Shodan
There was no iced tea. The media outlets were wrong when they first published that claim, and you’re wrong for repeating it.
Martin had purchased a can of Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice. It was found at the crime scene.
https://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/015.jpg
Yes, see post #32.
The bolded part presumes knowledge and intent, just like using the word “ignored” does and it prejudices the discussion. In this case, you are using “wouldn’t” to mean “refused” which is false: Mr. Black never refused to put the weapon down. Do you disagree? I mean, let’s make sure we’re talking about the same event and that we agree on what happened, okay?
Yes, because he FELT THREATENED by the armed man who was stalking him and now demanding to know why he was here, in a neighborhood he had every right to be in, acting suspicious in no way, aside from daring to be black. And when this armed man made these threatening remarks to Martin, he proceeded to defend himself, quite effectively. That’s why he punched Zimmerman and had grass stains on his knees. Because he was defending himself. If I was being followed by an armed man, I would defend myself too.
So now you’re saying that when Zimmerman is on patrol, all the shady black kids better get indoors and hide themselves, because if they run into *George “Batman” Zimmerman, First Lieutenant, Neighborhood Watch, *then he can question them for their suspicious behavior?
How come no one is questioning Zimmerman for HIS suspicious behavior? I’d much rather have Trayvon Martin running up and down my street with skittles in his pocket than have Sheriff Zimmerman, Fastest Gun in the South keeping me “safe” by questioning passing black people.
(post shortened)
Travon Martin had a criminal record. Martin was staying with his father at his father’s girlfriends home. Martin had been sent there by his mother after Martin had received another suspension, this time a 10 day suspension, from his high school.
Yes.
No, Trayvon would not have been justified in murdering Zimmerman for asking him what he was doing. You apparently don’t understand Florida’s laws.
Thank you for correcting this grievous error! 
Prior violent behavior, since we’re trying to establish his character. Those photos are from the incident in question, and we’re trying to establish Trayvon Martin’s state of mind when he was part of the incident that led to Zimmerman getting those injuries.
That should be obvious, but… you know.
Fine, here. Added the underlined parts.
How is a policeman in a dark house at the site of a known crime supposed to know whether this man is “not responding to” or “ignoring” police instructions? I’m not saying this guy should have been shot, but he was holding a gun that he didn’t put down when police demanded he do so, and he pointed at object at a police officer. How many black men in their 20s have been killed for far less?
A school suspension is not a criminal record. I do grant you that Trayvon Martin did have some issues with the law, although he’d never been charged with anything AFAIK. However, there is 0 history of violence.
Zimmerman didn’t JUST ask Trayvon what he was doing. You apparently don’t understand basic social interaction. When a grown white man follows a black kid around, carrying a gun, and demands to know what the black kid is “doing” this is an implicit threat.
I understand that the law would not view that “implicit threat” as legal justification for deadly force in self defense. Do you understand that?
(post shortened)
According to Martin’s non-girlfriend Dee Dee’s testimony, Martin was standing by Martin’s father’s girlfriend’s house, which was 300 feet away from Zimmerman’s location. Martin referred to the person following him as a (derogatory name), and then proceed to where Zimmerman was standing. A fight ensued. Martin could have entered the house, but chose not to.
Well, I didnt post in that thread, but the ATMB thread on that made it clear- Mason1972 got a warning (details in both threads). It isnt so much that his position was wrong, but that he did it in the wrong thread. There’s a PIT thread about stupid gun news, and if he had posted his story there, he would have gotten a totally different reaction.
Another example is posting in a thread about “Who was your favorite Friends character?” with a post about how you hated that show and a rant about how evil and stupid all the characters were. Indeed, that could be a OK opinion, but not there.
The police should determine that, or attempt to determine that, BEFORE they shoot someone, IMO. Do you disagree?
Again, you’re assuming knowledge on Mr. Black’s part, but you’ve also already acknowledged that Mr. Black did not hear the officer(s). If he didn’t hear them, he didn’t know he was supposed to stop holding the gun. Do you disagree?
Whoa! He did? I don’t recall seeing that in any of the news stories about this. I have not watched the video (and don’t intend to).
Again, you seem to be offering this up as justification for this shooting, despite saying earlier “I’m not saying the guy should have been shot”; your position is ambiguous at best, but your actions keep trying to justify this shooting. Is that your intent?