Shodan, you get to go first. You really need to realize that laws aren’t always just, and that sometimes, a person can be a fucked up individual even if he isn’t found guilty of a crime. Case in point, Zimmerman. Even if the story is exactly as you tell it – Zimmerman followed Martin around, eventually losing him; then Martin stalked him and attacked him*, but Zimmerman was able to overpower him and shoot Martin – then ZIMMERMAN IS STILL A FUCKED UP RACIST PIECE OF SHIT. Who died and made him Sheriff? Can you accept that even if it’s totally legal, Zimmerman is human filth whose behavior makes the world LESS SAFE, not MORE? Especially considering how many violent gun-related incidents this motherfucker has been involved in since then?
No, of course you can’t. Because he’s a white man, and using a gun in “self defense”, and so is beyond reproach.
*Apparently, we know Martin was the sort of deranged and violent individual who would do such a thing, because at one point he claimed to be a “no limit nigga” – a heinous crime that clearly deserves the death penalty, delivered by Chubby Batman, AKA George Zimmerman.
Now, HurricaneDitka, if I had just read Shodan’s posts, I wouldn’t think it was possible to get any more racist and depraved. Luckily, you’re here to set me straight. Where do I even start? Like Shodan, you ignore any evidence that doesn’t line up with your way of thinking. You ignore Zimmerman’s history of violence. You portray Martin as doubling back after reaching the safety of his father’s house, despite the record not showing this at all, and in fact showing the opposite: Zimmerman approached Martin, who was tired from running and not yet at his father’s house. Yet of course, you ignore this, because you’ve got an alternate theory. For some reason, Martin followed Zimmerman around and attacked him, unprovoked. You claim to have a theory that explains this, better than our “ridiculous” theory that Martin was scared of Zimmerman and attacked him in self defense. But you won’t share this theory, because you’re worried we’d find it “disgusting”.
Well, Ditka, it’s pretty obvious why you think Trayvon is guilty, and frankly, it IS disgusting.
I think my last post in the thread sums up my opinion of you two.
Would you prefer we just allow racism to be stated on this board unchallenged?
The argument for not moderating racism is that, through the free exchange of ideas, people would realize that racist ideas are simply not as good as non-racist ideas. Well, that only works if you challenge the racists.
There has been discussion on the SDMB that liberals have trouble understanding the motivations of conservatives. The reverse isn’t nearly as true - conservatives and independents are more likely to be able to accurately define what drives liberals. I think that might be what is going on here.
White guy (okay, half-Hispanic/half-white) shoots black kid. There is no room in your brain for any explanation except the one - it has to be racist. That’s not a conclusion; it’s an assumption. And there is no room in your teeny little brain for any other explanation - Zimmerman shot a black kid (who attacked him and was sitting on his chest trying to bash his head in), so Zimmerman is a racist racist who is racist.
Then I point out that the reason Zimmerman shot him is because Martin was sitting on his chest trying to bash his head in. That doesn’t fit into your head - it requires the ability to set aside what you have been conditioned to do, and actually think analytically. That’s hard work. So, it’s easier not to do that - I must be a racist racist who is racist too. I get that.
There is a currently active thread in GD about how liberals talk differently to black people, because the liberals are afraid of being thought racist. Conservatives don’t do that, according to the study, because conservatives don’t worry as much about being thought of as racist. I think some of that is going on here as well.
The accusation of racism as thrown about by liberals has evolved, to some extent. It is no longer enough to treat black people the same as everyone else - that’s racism. You have to talk down to them, and use softer, more agreeable language to them. Otherwise, they might call you racist. Similarly, you can’t apply a standard that asks, might shooting someone be a reasonable response to that someone’s attacking you and trying to bash your head in. No no - even asking that question is racist racist racist.
But, at least in the case of this particular conservative, I have been called racist for applying the same standard to people no matter what their race, that I care very little about it.
‘Zimmerman shot Martin. That was racist.’
‘Martin had attacked him, and was sitting on his chest trying to smash his head in.’
‘For saying that - I am going to call you a racist.’
Maybe I cared about it the first four hundred times it happened. Now - not so much.
Regards,
Shodan
PS - As I have mentioned before, iiandyiiii, if your idea of not engaging with me on race is to drop your turd into every Pitting, you have an interesting, not to say stupid, interpretation of “not engaging”.
“Engaging” is like this – the post above is full of falsehoods, half-truths, and incredible bullshit. Do I sometimes violate my own rules of engaging? Sure.
Not engaging is pointing out to others that it’s not worth engaging you about race because you’re an unconscious (or maybe conscious, I don’t know) racist who thinks it’s reasonable to refer to black people as the n-word based on the ludicrous justification of a long-disavowed/regretted-by-the-comedian comedy routine.
You know, I used to consider myself an independent. But since 2016 assholes like you have made me question every conservative position I’ve held. I still hold many of those positions, but I had to have a good, hard think about it, because the fact that I agree with someone who is THIS blind or hateful is kinda disturbing.
Hmmm, no, try again. Let’s think about what actually happened. White guy followed a black kid around, demanded to know what he was doing, then got in a fight with him, then shot the black kid.
At the end of the day, an unarmed black kid who was not committing any crimes before Zimmerman came on the scene is dead. Before we move forward, can we just agree that this is a bad thing? That even if Zimmerman was right to fear for his life, it was tragic that Trayvon ended up dead? Because as far as I can tell, neither you nor HurricaneDitka ever acknowledged this.
Now, why did Trayvon Martin end up dead? Because Zimmerman shot him. Why were Trayvon and Zimmerman in contact in the first place? Because Zimmerman followed Trayvon despite being told not to. Why did he do this?
Well, this is where we should take another quick pause. Can we at least agree that George Zimmerman is a piece of shit individual? Regardless of whether this particular shooting was justified, do you understand that his behavior is not beneficial to our society? Even if he had stopped Trayvon, had a short chat with him, and sent him on our way, that would still be a bad thing, because who the bloody FUCK is George Zimmerman to stop random people on the street and demand to know their business? We have police officers for that, and fuckheads like Zimmerman, with his history of questionable behavior (can you just agree to THAT? That Zimmerman is a person with a history of bad judgement? Because regardless of the Trayvon Martin case, that’s still a fact!) should not be patrolling our streets, armed with a gun?
OK, now that we’ve addressed that – so Zimmerman is following Trayvon. Why? I’m not asking you what you can “prove beyond reasonable doubt”. Based on your experience with the human fucking race, why do you think that Zimmerman was following Trayvon? Do you think it might be because he was black? Do you understand that these types of encounters between blacks and law enforcement – even when they end up totally peaceful, and the cop and black man just converse and go about their days – still lead to a hostile relationship between the African American community and our law enforcement? And do you agree that a fat fuck like George Zimmerman is much less qualified to handle that complex relationship than a trained officer of the law? Because these are very important issues to consider when we look at what happened that night.
Now, based on the relationship between law enforcement (and I realize that Zimmerman isn’t law enforcement, but when he stops and questions Martin, he’s acting in that capacity – but without any of the respect that comes from the badge, and from being a public servant in the employee of our - hopefully at least somewhat - trusted government) and the African American community, do you see why Martin might feel threatened here? Based on the long, long history of lynching and hate crimes carried out in the South, which I am sure that you condemn just as much as I do, do you see why Trayvon Martin might fear for his life in that moment? You and **HurricaneDitka **are both very quick to point out that asking someone “what are you doing around here?” isn’t a threat, but between 1865 and 1968, how many encounters between blacks and whites that started off with that exact sentence ended up with the black man hanging from a tree? Do you really not see why Trayvon Martin might fear for his life in that situation?
No, that’s not it at all. But you’re refusing to consider WHY Martin would do such a thing. Martin was a human being, a rational, thinking human person. Not an animal. He must have had some reason to attack Zimmerman. That reason could have been that Zimmerman had a nice watch and Trayvon wanted to take it, for example. But we can’t just make up a reason – we need to examine what we know.
What we know is that Trayvon Martin was a 17 year old kid who was scared. We know he was scared because he fled from the mail shed at a run, and he explained his actions over the phone to his girlfriend. He told her that he was afraid of the man who was following him.
Do you recognize that for a 17 year old kid, outside after dark, realizing that you are being followed is scary? Do you realize that for a black man in the South, being followed by a white man is even scarier?
Trayvon ran, and eventually he reached his father’s street. He said that he was “right outside”, but he continued walking, until he saw the man who was following him again. I know you keep insisting that he had made it to his father’s doorstep, but as I pointed out in the other thread, that’s not consistent with the testimony that HurricaneDitka cited. And we know that he was scared again, because that’s what the evidence shows us. Why would he be scared? Well, sometimes you think that someone is following you; but then you turn a corner and they’re gone. But if you lose sight of them, and then see them again, that confirms the suspicion: they really are following you.
Trayvon was talking to his girlfriend, telling her how scared he was. Does that sound like the type of thing a big, bad thug looking for a fight would do?
Trayvon didn’t run – according to his girlfriend, he was too winded. Even if that wasn’t the case, I believe he has the right to “stand his ground”, doesn’t he? When Zimmerman approached, he asked him why he was following him. Zimmerman didn’t identify himself as a concerned citizen, a member of the neighborhood watch, someone protecting the community. He just demanded to know what Trayvon was doing. Why does Zimmerman do this? What gave him the right to wander around after dark, but forbids Trayvon from doing it? It’s pretty obvious that this is a racial issue. Trayvon is suspicious because he’s black. You might deny it, Zimmerman might deny it, but come on. Give it a rest. It’s a racial issue, and you know it, deep inside. Study after study has shown that race has a real, measurable impact on these sorts of decisions, even among people who aren’t racist. And based on Zimmerman’s other actions – for example, his tweets calling Obama a baboon, or setting his profile picture to a confederate flag – all show that he IS a racist. You can admit that. It doesn’t invalidate your “self defense” argument, and it doesn’t weaken your gun rights. Even if Zimmerman was fully justified in shooting Trayvon, he’s still a racist, as is evidenced by plenty of other actions that he’s taken.
So here’s Trayvon, on a dark street with a grown man – a grown white man – who is demanding to know what his business is. At this point, the facts get blurry. But we know that Trayvon struck Zimmerman and eventually ended up on top of him. What do you think led him to do this? Is it just the fact that he’s a ‘thug’, that the hormones in his body drove him mad, and with no more reason than a wild beast he attacked Zimmerman? Because that’s the story you told in the other thread. If you don’t see how that narrative lines up precisely with the racist ideology of the South during the height of the Jim Crow era, then you shouldn’t be calling anyone else “little brained”. And if you DO see it, but you stand by that argument, then you’re a racist, plain and simple.
That was your explanation. That Trayvon is some sort of madman, who attacked Zimmerman for the simple pleasure of a fight. I ask you if that lines up at all with Dee Dee’s testimony. If the boy who ran away scared is really the man who savagely attacked Zimmerman. I don’t believe it, but you apparently do.
I think it’s much more likely that, fully aware of the history of his people in the South, Trayvon was scared shitless. Perhaps irrationally – he is, after all, a 17 year old boy – when Zimmerman approached him, he decided that Zimmerman was stopping him because of his race, and meant to do harm to him. Maybe he was wrong about that, and Zimmerman was pure of heart, but based on the history involved, I hope you can agree that it isn’t too much of a stretch. Maybe he even saw the gun. Humans are notoriously bad at risk assessment, and 17 year olds especially so. Maybe Trayvon decided that Zimmerman was going to hurt him because of his race, and so he tried to defend himself.
Is it really so ridiculous to think that this is possible? You act as if the South has no problems with racism. As if there weren’t over 2,000 hate crimes committed against blacks in 2012, the year that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.
That’s why I call you racist. Because you choose to ignore the fact that black people are still discriminated against today, and are even still violently attacked at times. You choose to pretend that Trayvon Martin’s killing had nothing to do with race. And you choose to pretend that Zimmerman is a fine Southern gentleman and an example to us all.
I know you probably won’t read all of this, or will respond to it with a one-line dismissal. But I chose to believe that maybe you do care about honest debate, so I took the time to explain my thinking. I won’t bother responding directly to your accusations – that I use the label “racist” to discredit you lightly. Hopefully my reasoning is refutation enough.
As someone who generally agrees with you and likes you as a poster – well, I hope you’re wrong, is all I can say, because I just spent the last 45 minutes of my life responding to his post in detail. I hope he’s at least open to considering other points of view. I guess we’ll find out.
You’ve been here since 2008, and you still hope Shodan is open to other points of view? Good luck with that.
Your post is excellent, though. It accurately identifies what racists do; they refuse to entertain the possibility of racism as a motivating factor for any behavior, absent some ridiculously high standard of evidence being met. No matter how obvious it is from historical and social context that racism is a highly plausible explanation for some action, they insist that to even raise that possibility is to engage in malicious and intellectually dishonest false accusation. And they will keep doing it no matter how many times it is pointed out to them, because they’re not about the truth, they’re about the racism.
Yes, it was tragic that Martin died, and I said so in my first post to your thread.
Zimmerman followed Martin originally because he felt Martin was acting suspiciously, in a neighborhood that had experienced a number of recent break-ins. Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy.
He also stopped following Martin when the NEN dispatcher asked him to. This has no legal or moral force, IMO. But he did stop after losing sight of Martin. It was while Zimmerman was trying to find a street sign that would give a precise location that Martin doubled back and confronted Zimmerman.
No.
I do not agree that, in principle, having a neighborhood watch is bad for society.
Because he was the neighborhood watch guy, in a neighborhood that had experienced a number of recent break-ins.
Maybe here is where you are going wrong. There is no evidence that Zimmerman was following Martin because he was black.
Zimmerman was not law enforcement. What he did has nothing to do with law enforcement. Zimmerman was a private citizen, with the same rights and responsibilities as Martin or anyone else.
As I have mentioned several times, if Martin was scared of being lynched, all he had to do was walk into his own living room. The fact that he did not, but instead doubled back and confronted the person of whom he was allegedly so scared, indicates that he was not scared of being lynched. His motives for going back and confronting Zimmerman were probably other than that.
See above. He was so scared at being followed that he did not enter his own house, but went back looking for Zimmerman.
No, it is actually consistent. If you look at diagrams as to where Zimmerman originally spotted Martin, where Martin’s house was, and where the fight took place, you will note that it is consistent with someone doubling back from Martin’s house to where the confrontation and the fight took place.
We hashed this out in several of the monster threads.
If Zimmerman had attacked Martin, Martin would have been entirely within his rights to stand his ground. Likewise, if Martin attacked Zimmerman, which is what the evidence indicates happened, Zimmerman would have been within his rights to stand his ground. Zimmerman didn’t get the chance - it is hard to stand with someone sitting on your chest banging your head on the ground.
Because he was the neighborhood watch guy.
Nothing forbids either of them from wandering around, or forbids them from asking anyone they please what they are doing. Both are forbidden from attacking people on the street, even if they ask what you are doing.
If by “pretty obvious” you mean “something you are assuming without a scrap of evidence”, OK.
No, I don’t know anything of the sort.
As I mentioned above, this might be an example where you literally cannot comprehend the thinking of someone who declines to share your automatic assumptions.
If you mean it is a racial issue to you , sure. If you mean either I or Zimmerman are motivated by racism, no.
Martin doubled back, confronted and attacked Zimmerman, because he was a hot-headed, unstable teen ager with a history of acting out. He had been kicked out of school for theft, vandalism, and drugs, and was sent to his father to see if his father could do any better with him. That’s the story I told in the other thread.
See my earlier post.
Being called a racist doesn’t bother me, especially not when I am arguing based on facts and evidence and the accuser is not. Perhaps it should, but it doesn’t.
No doubt you can quote me where I have said anything of this sort.
Babale, I don’t recall seeing you around here before, although I see you’ve been a member for years. That was a truly *admirable *bit of writing. Thank you. I intend to start looking for your posts.
Anyone know how to save a post? This one’s gonna come in REAL handy next time the cops shoot an unarmed black man at 50 feet and this asshole is defending them.
