I think it’s going to have to be a case by case basis. One of my co-workers is a claimed Christian. He does Christmas and all that. He also believes all children should be god-fearing. He believes god did his “thang” by taking out 150,000 people in the South Asian region. His reasons were sincere. I found them ri-fucking-diculous. He’s a Khristian. See?
Actually…there’s a fairly good mechanisim suggested in the Bible. Goes something like this:
“By their fruits you shall know them”
And if their fruits amount to them wishing horrible death on millions of innocent people…then it seems to me they have not really become Christians. No I don’t have too much of a problem noting that.
No, I can’t question their “belief” in Christ. But if they take the to mean he’s a get out of Hell free card and ignore everything he said then…well, I think “Kristian” is justified.
You rang?
I knew somebody would go for that.
I certainly hope you’re not *their * fruit though :eek: .
So if ‘Khristians’ are fiar game, does this mean I can declare open season on ‘Moozlams’?
Depends, what does ‘Moozlam’ mean to you?
Well…speaking for myself…yup. Definatly. There are people who call themselve Muslim who violate the spirit of the Koran just as much as Khristains violate the spirit of the Gospels.
I certainy think the 9/11 guys deserve to be called Moozlams.
Although I wonder about “fair game”. I don’t recall suggesting the use of hunting rifles.
This is what I see. You claim the ability on a case by case basis to determine whether or not a paticular individual is a true follower of Christ simply by observing his behavior. If indeed Christ exists, and if he has personal relationships with people on Earth, then it is the height of arrogance for you to presume to know the nature of those relationships. So it is you who will separate the sheep from the goats, and judge who is worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven? Bah. Were the Crusaders true Christians, after they sacked Jerusalem and raped and killed the Muslims? Were the Inquisitors true Christians? Who are you to judge, and how do I avail myself of your wisdom, for I am but a poor soul lost in the wilderness.
[QUOTE=betenoir]
I suspect we can do this for a loooong time but here goes–
“Judge not that ye be not judged”
But…it’s not about deciding who gets to go into heaven. No of course I can’t decide that. It’s not about presuming the ultimate worth of a person. I can’t do that.
But I can say something about their earthly behavior. Yes, I think Crusaders who raped and pillaged in the name of god were missing the point of Christianity.
Judge not less you be judged is about compassion. And empathy. And knowing…like you said…we are all lost souls in the wilderness. It’s not about giving up all cognitive thought.
Can I ask…do you see any way to reconcile “It would be cool to bomb Mecca” (and you know, i think it was the flippance that apalled me, as much as the malice) with the teachings of Christianity? Without divesting the word of any meaning whatsoever?
I like the term “Khristian” or “Kristian” and I think I like the term “Moozlim.” While we’re at it, I suppose every religion could use a similar term (thought the two we have seem most useful – not that Christians and Muslims are more often bad people, but that those two religions seem to be interpreted illogically more often than others). Hm… “Jyoo”? Anyway, yes, the line is fuzzy, but that’s an issue of what you believe Christianity/Islam really is and should be, not a problem with the terms themselves.
I know it’s been said, but linking to a thread on another board, especially one containing opinions many Dopers are likely to disagree with, is a Bad Idea. I wanted a link too, but that’s because I thought it was a thread on this board. So nevermind.
I absolutely cannot reconcile such a statement with the teachings of Christianity. I would support anyone who says that such a statement is totally inconsistent with a belief in Christ (which, as I have said, I do not have.) What I cannot support is anyone who claims to be able to distinguish true Christians from false ones. In my understanding of Christianity, such a task is not for human beings, but for God.
Ok, screw it. Let’s just call them what they really are, fucking hypocrites.
[QUOTE=trandallt What I cannot support is anyone who claims to be able to distinguish true Christians from false ones. In my understanding of Christianity, such a task is not for human beings, but for God.[/QUOTE]
And I agree.
Well, ok, I don’t believe in God so I don’t know if there’s anyone there to distiguish. Sometimes I wish there was.
But as I said, I’m not talking about ultimate worth. Just what they are doing and saying in the here and now.
Told ya so.
Who’s saying anything about the Kingdom of Heaven? I’m just talking about recognizing the fact that certain self-professed Christians don’t seem to follow Christ’s teachings.
I’m quite happy not to judge who is evil and who is good, who is deserving of everlasting joy and who is deserving of everlasting torment. I have no moral authority to make such judgements.
But judging whether or not someone follows the teachings of Christ? Why not? It’s not like I can’t look up those teachings. They’re written down, you know. Some cases will be fuzzy and perhaps even impossible to decide, but not all. People who love others as themselves and turn the other cheek…following the teachings of Christ. People who kill grannies for fun and steal from the poor to buy hookers and blow…not following the teachings of Christ. Why is that so hard?
An excellent point, which I’ve used a variation on in arguing against the “they’re not really Christians” types on religious fora.
However, there are certain points which Christ Himself is quite clear that he will use as criteria for judging. I employed reference to them in my recent GD exchanges with Prisoner[seven-digit number], not to judge him but to hold his conduct up to his own examination as whether he saw himself as following those standards , at one point explicitly saying that I was doing it out of loving concern that he not find himself among the goats.
As a Christian who tries to follow Christ’s message (even if it seems to a fundamentalist that I’m “condoning sin” and “watering down the Gospel” according to their more legalistic approach), I was at first pleased with this thread. But it has taken on an air of judgmentalism – and the ultimate goal, for any humanist whether Christian or secular, should be to turn the hearts of those labelled “Khristian” by this thread to what Jesus said was their duty and honor.
Huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh … Mecca sucks, Beavis.