…if Trump were to proclaim “martial law” (and I don’t think he will) he wouldn’t look to the military in the first instance: he would look to his enforcers, ICE, the Border Patrol and the Bureau of Prisons. And after everything I’ve seen this year many police departments would fall in line as well. And while I don’t think Trump will go that far: its what could happen in the future that should be a bigger concern. ICE should be disbanded and the Border Patrol completely rebuilt, but Biden won’t do any of those things.
Why doesn’t Trump simply issue orders to lock Hillary up, or deport Obama because Trump says he isn’t a citizen? And the millions will just “fall in line” like I’m always told here?
Because these things happen incrementally. Take too big a step and people will see that it’s obviously a bunch of bullshit.
But… take a bunch of little steps…
First, call your supporters to protest. Let them know that they should not be “peaceful” about it. Drop hints.
Then, when there is a violent protest, blame it on Antifa, leftists and DEMOCRATS. Blame Biden.
Next, call on individual personel from ICE, Border Patrol, whack-a-do sherrifs and other police and the Bureau of Prisons who support you to rally around. Call on them to form groups to “protect our country from these lawless leftists”
Order the army to do nothing. Tell them that they are not to interfere in what is a domestic disturbance. Tell them you are handling it.
THEN you can have Biden, Hillary, Obama and other Democrat leadership locked up “for their own safety.”
So, when are these little steps going to start? He’s only got a couple of weeks left…
They are a bunch of fat, out of shape , couch potatoes who are far too cowardly to do anything like that.
Marvin Heemeyer was a 52-year-old coot who got so mad about a zoning dispute that he transformed a bulldozer into an armored vehicle that the authorities were powerless against, they even considered having the National Guard send in an Apache helicopter to try to take it out with a Hellfire missile. His rampage in the Killdozer was only stopped when one of the treads got caught during the destruction of a hardware store, and Marvin took his own life with a firearm. They couldn’t even get his body out with explosives, and had to cut it out of the vehicle after a prolonged period of time with an acetylene torch.
My point is, don’t underestimate nutjobs with a grudge against the government, no matter how cowardly and/or physically unimposing they may be. I worry someday about a Killdozer-style army that doesn’t stop at property destruction.
I think he’s screwed up the timing. Because he cannot even organize a coup effectively. But:
Interestingly, Marvin believed that God had blessed his plan, and he was a deeply religious man.
As many crazy people believe.
I was once told by someone who dealt with the criminally insane that most folks locked up had been told to commit horrible acts by God or an Angel. Nobody in the forensic lockup had been told to kill people by the devil. Why would they listen to the devil? They were doing God’s Work.
…why are you asking me these questions? What do these questions have anything to do with what I said, or what this thread is all about? What part of “I don’t think he will do this” do you not understand?
Why do you think he won’t do it? Because he couldn’t do it, or he just wouldn’t?
I want you to show your work when you are saying these agencies, random police departments will fall in line, OK?
Yes, it’s disturbing to me that Trump spitballs about declaring “martial law” (whatever he thinks it is) and that the military is going to “re-run the election in swing states that Trump lost.” It’s disturbing he says this, it is also a completely absurd plan. Trump can’t just issue orders to arrest anyone he wants and hold them without trial in our government because this or that agency will simply “fall in line”, even though no one with any power has actually done that to date. So show your work.
…gut feeling. Its a line call.
They already have fallen in line. We already saw it play out earlier this year. Federal agencies went into states and fucked them up. They tear gassed the Mayor of Portland. Lined up to “protect” Federal buildings with batons and plucked people off the streets and took them into custody. They didn’t need the army to do any of that. If Trump were to declare he was remaining in office (and that’s a hypothetical if, I don’t think he will) then he wouldn’t need the army to squash protests. (which is the first thing we would probably see happen in response.) We’ve already seen Federal agencies doing this, we saw how both small and big police forces didn’t hold back.
I never claimed that Trump could just issue orders “to arrest anyone he wants and hold them without trial in our government”. Why don’t you find the people making these claims and ask them to “show their work?”
Other examples: There have been plenty of angry right-wing protests where the police did nothing at all. One group broke into the Idaho State House (some carrying arms) during a legislative session and disrupted proceedings, and the police did nothing (and the Republicans in the legislature were likewise fine with it). And remember Kyle Rittenhouse? The Kenosha police invited the group of armed right-wing counterprotesters to come and oppose the BLM marchers. Both groups of protesters were out after curfew, but only one - the one carrying weapons (in Rittenhouse’s case, illegally) - was approved by the police. When things got ugly and Rittenhouse shot a couple of people, he was literally allowed to walk away despite multiple people identifying him as the shooter.
There are a lot of stories like these demonstrating that the police are at least willing to excuse the actions of right-wing groups (even when illegal, destructive and/or violent) while actively attacking left-wing groups (even when legal and peaceful).
So if you want to know the “when”: it’s been happening for a long time. It’s just largely been a local phenomenon before now. .
The end result, sure.
But what about the part right before the end result.
Do you really think that the next pizza guy isn’t going to pull the trigger?
Right, that’s history. We are talking about now. I fail to see how that has any relevance to what a malignant Trump supporter will do in the next few years.
I don’t think that he has to declare martial law to deploy those agencies. He already has deployed them against US citizens.
And what will you do if he does? Exactly.
And do you think that his supports will do any more?
Exactly. I keep seeing people saying, “He would never do that.” and then, when down the line, he does that, they say, “Well, it’s not that much worse than that other thing that he just did.”
Democracy doesn’t die overnight. It dies slowly, with the citizens who are supposed to be on guard instead letting it slip away.
Yeah, I don’t think Trump really can actually bring about martial law. I think the worst he can do has pretty much been done at this point, which is to misuse federal officers for police actions in sporadic cases – I could see that. We’ve actually seen that already. But “I’m King Donald, I declare the US under my total command.” Ummm, no.
At the same time, that we’re even talking about this, that the White House apparently even had this conversation, is normalizing the thought. As I said on another thread, we are lucky that Donald Trump isn’t an ideologue and that he hasn’t really created an ideological movement that people can buy into. He’s created…something, but it’s not really clear what. His presidency can mean different things to different right wing assholes.
But let’s go into a future in which the United States’ wealth continues to accelerate for the Jeff Bezos’ and Ray Dalios of the world, while the middle class continues to get gutted. Let’s go deeper into the future where state and city governments can no longer distribute things like Medicaid, unemployment, or food stamps effectively. Housing prices and rents are affordable one year; out of control the next, displacing people. Basic healthcare becomes even more of a privilege and luxury. In short, the economic and political systems are not just sorta failing but really failing. Enter the ideological demagogues who create some wacked out new hypothesis that explains the way forward, and the way forward is by rewarding the majority or the “righteous” and eliminating or jailing everyone else.
Yeah, I don’t think that Trump will be the one to lead us into the right wing promised land.
But he has done a lot of the work of scouting it out and mapping it for the next one.
2020 may have been the most important election of our lives… so far.
We’ll see what sorts of malignant actors come out of the woodwork. 2024 may very well be a far more pivotal year than 2020 was. If conservatives have their way, and manage to block the democrats from accomplishing anything to improve the lives of the American people, next up could be a straight up fascist, and he (and it will be a he) will have at least 75 million people already lined up to vote for him.
A fascist might not necessarily need 75 million votes next time, not if enough of the people who supported Biden and Obama believe that the system is hopelessly broken and that democracy doesn’t deliver the goods. I think maybe 85-90% of Obama/Clinton/Biden voters would still show, but losing that 10% would be enough to tip the scales in favor of fascism, especially if the fascists can organize effectively at the local level, which conservatives have frankly been doing for years.
Exactly. Trump is too incompetent to be an actual tyrant of a country; He’s limited to a tantrum in his office while playing a tyrant on TwitFace.
The next guy will be far more skillful.
We really have no idea.
Remember W? Remember 9/11? Remember Homeland Security? Remember Afghanistan? “Should trends continue…” then Trump would have invaded Russia, I guess. Didn’t really work out that way.
Germany was willing to fight two world wars. That is, or was, a trend. They haven’t been up for number 3. Whomever the next figure on the right is, he could go off in a completely different direction.
But I saw W as a neocon, while Trump isn’t; he’s an isolationist who used trade wars and border walls to isolate the country. Invading other countries is anathema to such philosophy.
Plus, he cozied up to the likes of Putin and Kim Jong-un. If he invaded anyone it would probably be Mexico.